130 bpm unachievable?

That sounds plausible. There is a point where concentration is no longer necessary because the motions become learned and essentially pre-recorded. And this pre-recorded state can exist at some tempos and not others. Why is that? That’s the operative question. Guesses are:

  1. The motion you’re using at various tempos is actually different, and one of them is learned and the other is not.

  2. The motion is the same but the tempos are different, and that’s enough to qualify as “different” to your motor system. In other words, the baked-in “recordings” only work for certain speed ranges, because the speed at which the pre-recorded thing plays back is also a learned quality. And if you try and play that back at a different speed, it no longer works, so you need a new “recording” for that speed or speed range. If that’s true, how wide of a tempo range is one recording good for?

  3. ???

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Ehrm, I see there are a lot of long replies already, I only skimmed through so forgive me if someone already said this.

Have you tried moving away from the “picking all notes” mindframe, and doing a mixture of picked notes and pulloffs? It can be an “easier” way to explore higher speeds without getting your picking hand exhausted (as the right hand essentially does some bursts and then gets some breaks while the left does the pull-offs). It results in a cool sound as well.

During the “bursts” you may be able to temporarily break out of your typical picking speed barriers. Someone called John Petrucci gives some nice examples here :wink: :

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I’ll add to what @tommo’s presented here to add that in order to get the pull offs, or “all-hammers” a la the Holdsworth approach, as a sort of cross-training, adjustment of the thumb position behind the neck, elbow position, posture all come into play. I swear by it, as my picking speed overall jumped up very quickly when I started to get the left hand moving.

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I don’t know if I’ve speculated about this on here before, but in the Martin Miller interview he mentions that the motor system also works in a chunky way, i.e. past a certain speed you don’t send signals and get feedback for every stroke but rather “check” a larger chunk for successful execution. I had the thought that problems might arise when your “mental” chunk is the wrong size for the currently operative motor chunk, that is, if on the one hand you’re thinking “I am playing a pattern of 6 notes” while your motor system is going “2, 2, 2” for example.

Does this make any sense?

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Sure, why not? I don’t think we really know yet what’s going on at the level of the circuitry. And it could very well be something like this. I know Martin is enthusiastic about this subject and the researcher whose work he was quoting. I don’t know what specific papers that individual has publishes and how far these subjects have been looked into.

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You could try doing bursts to a metronome, i.e. play one group of the six note sequence and then the first note of the second six. I find this effective for cementing a chunk in my brain. So for a bar, I conceptualise it as 4 chunks instead of 24 notes. Think this was something I saw Martin Miller advocate for speed, and found helpful. Might be worth a go.

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Hi @Troy thanks for the quick response I think you have nailed what I am after. I will try and be concise here.

The reason I thought 130bpm sextuplets is the goal is this is what you play it at on the seminars. So I thought this was a benchmark before progressing. Also there are hundreds of metal & rock solos that require sextuplets at >130 which are all songs I wish to be able to play.

Last lick in Solo to “Bark at the moon” by Ozzy. Anything Yngwie, Steve Vai or Slash. These artists are all very well covered on YouTube by bedroom guitarists so this must be a common skillset?

Going back to your points above I think I am looking at 1. Learn smoothness of motion. My motions are not smooth 100% of the time and on reading your post I conclude that my motion is not totally learned yet. Like you say I am in the category of floating between movements. Thanks again for your input as it has given me motivation to go with trial and error and get the motion as smooth and effortless as I can.

I recorded a couple of normal speed clips but I think they are not required as I just need more practise to smooth out my picking. I can feel it is not smooth and effortless just now.

DWPS Yngwie 6 120bpm Normal speed footage

DWPS Yngwie with different view 120bpm

Thanks again
Alan

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Hi @tommo I will definitely try this as you are a picking machine as shown on your 2WPS posts. I have tried picking 6 notes then legato 6 then pick 6 and legato 6 all back to back as it feels like I can lock into the rhythm with the picking hand better.

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Hi @RockStarJazzCat I did think my left hand was tensing up and this was causing me to tense overall and it maybe was not down to my picking hand. I tried playing the phrase just picking the first note and then legato or a bit to get the phrase under my left fretting hand. Do you play classical sitting position or guitar on your leg?

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Also thanks everyone else who has posted responses, it is very much appreciated. You guy are such awesome helpful Dudes :grin:

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I don’t know! We did that picking poll and the midpoint came out around 180bpm:

https://troygrady.com/2016/08/22/survey-on-picking-speed/

It has drifted upwards a small amount over time but not much. This was pretty much where I figured things would land, if you had asked me to guess, so I will admit to thinking this admittedly non-scientific questionnaire is realistic.

Anyway all I was really getting at is that no matter what, in musical terms, 200 bpm is pretty fast. That Bark at the Moon lick doesn’t sound too clean to me, and there really aren’t too many examples of players from the '80s hitting that kind of mark with absolute clarity outside of a handful of famous players we all know. I think I’m always trying to set expectations to a realisitic level just because I think people get all worked about where they feel they should be versus what they can do. And I’d rather everyone be thrilled with where they are, and thrilled with every advance they make beyond where they are.

That said I think these clips look great. I don’t see why you can’t hit those goals eventually when you get these movements ironed out. If you’re still in the “searching for smoothness” phase, from the looks of things I don’t think you’re at the beginning of that road. You’re probably somewhere in the middle.

I’d turn off the metronome and demo as many different arm setups, grips and motions as you can to see if you can find anything that clicks and feels more fast and smooth than what you’re currently doing. And if you do find something, do it for a minute or so, then put the guitar down. Come back a minute later and see if you can reproduce it, by feel. If you can’t, start over. That’s the guts of how I do trial and error and it’s all about trying to find something that works and then learning to do it again, and again, by feel, after a break, until you can do it every time.

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Just to kinda approach this from a different angle. Something that might help with increasing speed is ‘mixing in’ another mechanic to help with the exertion/speed. The most common ‘mix-in’ mechanic I’ve seen is the elbow.

So basically… you can continue to do the same mechanic you use at the slower speeds (ie wrist, etc)… but the elbow acts as sort-of a ‘helper’ to ensure you get from one side to the next quickly enough. Troy talks about this in a recent video. I think it’s called dwps elbow mechanic or something.

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Hey there @weealf, these days I play standing religiously. Keyboards in my practice space are set up for playing standing, ergonomically. At my day job I’m similarly most comfortable programming while standing.

All that said, I started on classical and have always referred back to that. When I do sit, I try to approximate my standing position as much as possible. That can mean leg, custom cushion on leg, classical footstool… My focus is more on things like the elbow position produced, and keeping thumb comfortably behind my other fingers.

The all-hammer-on practice is great for ensuring I’m not clutching the instrument in a way that encumbers my playing. With the disclaimer that I use all kinds of techniques. The hammer technique just helps me with everything else already under hand. Keeps my left hand index generally more mobile.

Hope that helps. Thanks for your interest. :slight_smile:

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To me, your picking movements looks pretty good, tho as other said, you might want to try some other types of movement in order to fine tune it.

On the other hand, the full speed clip suggest that your sense of rhythm is not on point. It’s difficult to say for the first rep, but everything sounds shifted compare to the actual beat. It’s kinda like you’re starting somewhere between the beat itself and the up beat but not where the second 16th note should be either. Also it sounds like your rhythm is not even, on the slow mo you posted, it sounds like your not always playing at the same speed.

I think that on top of working on technique at higher speed like you do here you should also try to really work on your sense of rythm. To me, it looks like your problem might be that you’re no quite in sync with the beat, rather than not being able to reach the speed technically speaking.

Here is a cool Adam Neely video that gives a bunch of stuff to work on rhythm :

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Adding to Lanoit’s point, I’m going to put in a plug for some cross training with “melodics.com.” Honesty in rhythmic conception matters. Enjoy.

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Hi @Lanoit thanks for the Rhythm info I’ll have a look when I get in from work. You are correct my timing is well off. I thought I was hitting the beat but when I played back the clip I was well off. The 4 Bars i posted were the best from a longer clip with most even more off time. I didn’t even realise until I went in to trim down the clip. At least I have things to go and work on and improve. Thanks again for your input it is good to get constructive feedback. :sunglasses:

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Wow that is a good metronome lesson. Can’t wait to try this out. Thanks very much for sharing. It keeps rhythm practice interesting

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This is a great summation of why some are great players and most are average. You captured that inner drive for excellence but painted it from the mind of the guitarist. One of the best statements I have ever read!

I can totally get behind turning of the metronome to work on the movement and speed as it has helped me so much, but the metronome in my opinion is the last and very important part which is working on timing and benchmarking ability against multiple tempos.

I would much rather hear 16th triplets at 100bpm played well and in time than at 130bpm, but sloppy. It is also interesting how many players have a fast tempo for a lick that feels comfortable, but completely falls apart at lower tempos. In my opinion, testing (but not necessarily practicing) with a metronome/drum loop is essential.

There is an issue here of awareness that needs to be understood, because most players trying to transcend the possible(in their case), are just ending up expanding the known but not reaching anything new. I have done this for DECADES, so I understand this to well. This is finally changing and I have something to offer that so far I have never seen spoken of directly. This is only a brief sketch.

This is what I have experienced so far:

Tempo is not a fixed quality increased or decreased at will. If we think about this it does make sense, how could it be otherwise. This means as some have said already playing slower tempo’s well is for masters and in fact playing faster is actually easier because of momentum generated during the action. I have seen this DRAMATICALLY demonstrated with alternate picking increasing in speed both with wrist and elbow once the relationship between the adjacent strings is understood so that the boundaries between strings on both sides will Self Correct the activity of single string picking on all six open strings, something I had never accomplished before.

There is inherently a strength and stamina issue with the activity alternate picking - and I am not speaking of rotating forearm so called “tremolo” picking(which is itself transferable to piano as trills or tremolo as it called for non adjacent to note movement),- and that is with just open strings. This was a major undertaking and took years to develop because of the lack of clarity of what the activity really was/is.

This however is NOTHING compared to trying to alternate pick eighth notes at tempos above 100 bpm like say “Gas lighting Abbie” with mixed open and fretted single string playing at the moment the simple O 1 2 1 (repeat) digit combo’s for all finger ascending and descending and of course all the 3 finger possibilities(as consecutives). The actual picking motion with the laying on and adding and removing fingers complicates matter tremendously. If no one else will admit it I will. The reason for this is that when the string is fretted it increases the tension drastically, so one can work near the nut where the action is lower but the tension is much more obvious in that the pick must move across the string with much more force(at first), or higher up on the frets where the tension is less but the action is higher, so which way to go at first is a personal choice. The fact is that much more force must be applied to the string in order to generate enough momentum to create a cycle that can lead to lasting results(in other words learning). The three finger grips work well at first so that the pick doesn’t fall into fake uwps position which is really a pick control deficit in this case.

The other thing to consider is that there is at first a HUGE difference between 1 2 4 and 1 3 4. This is because the way the middle finger(2) and the ring finger(3) engage the string to fret it arrive at the fret in a different plane(best description I can do) and thus although playable by themselves as 1 2 4 2… 1 3 4 3…, trying to play them consecutively( 1343 1242 repeat) at tempos of say 100 bpm and above will show what I am saying is true for players who are not “there” yet.

One must be able negotiate the tension to get a good motion of alternate pick strokes consistently expressed with the changing fretted consecutive fingerings. I would say the many players abandon the notion of 1 3 4 3 all together because the motion seems impossible to get even the well known ones tend to use 1 2 3 2(the first three digits) whenever possible. For example (1 3 4 3 repeat)the picking of the string vibrates the string so the ring finger has to gauge this whenever it is fretted and this is only on ONE STRING that is being discussed here imagine the issues across two or three adjacent strings going 1 2 4 switch 1 3 4 and vice/versa.

This all lays hidden of course because the tempos that would allow these issues to present themselves are not conceivable to these players in the way they have allowed instrumental expression into/through their consciousness. But the way is open to allow this now perhaps some dialogue here anyone?