9th,11th,13th chords

Harmony & Theory
#21

In major scale harmony, the vii chord is a diminished triad, or a m7b5 chord (1, b3, b5, b7) as a seventh chord. There are other places where those chords occur. For example, the vi and vii chords of melodic minor harmony.

You’re confusing diminished triads with diminished 7th chords (1, b3, b5, bb7). Dim 7th chords contain consecutive minor 3rd intervals and therefore have inversions that themselves can be root chords (e.g., Bdim7, Ddim7, Fdim7, G#dim7 are enharmonically inversions of each other).

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#22

I am aware of the difference between diminished and half diminished chord
but I still do not understand where diminished chord follows?

Chord B dim.(b d f g#) is resolving on which chord? Cmaj?

D dim. ,F dim.,and G# dim. where they are going?

#23

Bdim7 is enharmonic equivalent of Ddim7, Fdim7, and G#dim7.

You’re right that Bdim7 can resolve up to C or Cm, that’s a resolution up a half step, but it’s true for the other three roots/inversions/names as well:

Ddim7 can resolve up to Eb or Ebm

Fdim7 can resolve up to Gb or Gbm

G#dim7 can resolve up to A or Am

But since all of those four chords are actually the same, then:
Bdim7, Ddim7, Fdim7, or G#dim7 can ALL resolve to C, Cm, Eb, Ebm, Gb, Gbm, A, or Am.

The same previous sentence would be true if you transposed all 12 chord names up a half step, same relationships, and still true if you transposed up another half step. But if you transpose up three half steps, you actually just get the same group of chords.

It’s worth noting that diminished seventh chords can resolve in other ways too. For example, this progression in C:

Em7 D#dim7 Dm7 G7 Cdim7 Cmaj7, same duration on each chord.

In this case, the diminished seventh chords are not resolving in the same way.

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#24

Another thing about the “four dim 7 chords in one” in harmonic minor is that when doing the stacked 3rds thing, the only degree that actually generates those four tones is the 7th. So, in A Harmonic Minor, that’d be G# dim 7. Chris Brooks’ “Neoclassical Speed Strategies” book talks about this stuff and how G#, B, D and F diminished seventh chords can each resolve to the tonic chord (Am) because of their connection to the E7b9 chord (E, G#, B, D, F). In other words, those 4 dim 7 chords can be treated like the dominant chord of the minor key.

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#25

Today I found something like this about “demonished hordes”

"Diminished chords are very often used as links
between two diatonic chords. The most common use:

A. Ascending:

  1. raised first degree (#I ??)
  • as a link between IMaj7 and IIm7
  1. raised second degree (# II ??)
  • as a link between IIm7 and IIIm7
  1. raised fourth degree (# IV ??)
  • as a link between IVMaj7 and V7
  1. raised fifth degree (#V ??)
  • as a connector between V7 and VIm7.

B. descending:

  1. lowered third degree (bIII ??)
  • as a link between IIIm7 and IIm7
  1. lowered sixth grade (bVI ??)
  • as a link between VIm7 and V7.

C. With the same note as the basis:

  1. First lowered degree (I ??)
  • as a transition chord between IMaj7i and IMaj7
  1. The fifth degree lowered (V ??)
  • as a transition chord between V7 and V7".

We are dealing with three types of diminished chord use, and thus as:

I. a chord whose base rises by half a pitch up between two diatonic chords (points A1, A2, A3 and A4)

II. the basis of the chord connecting two diatonic chords drops by half a tone down (points B1 and B2)

III. auxiliary chord. The basis of the chord remains unchanged
when the chords change.

The above examples of solutions are almost the rule,
but we can also meet the so-called alternative solutions. Here they are:

? chord #I ?? instead of solving it on Iim7, it can solve on dominant of IMaj7, that is, the G chord with the fifth in the bass (C # ?? → G / D),

? chord # II ?? instead of solving on IIIm7,can solve on first one with third in the bass (D # ?? → C / E),

? chord # IV ?? instead of solving on V7, it can be solved on first with fifth in the bass (F # ?? → C / G),

? chord #V ?? instead of solving it on Vim7, it can solve on dominant inserted into IIm7 (G # ?? → A7),

? chord bIII ?? instead of solving on Iim7, it can be solved on the V7
with the fifth in the bass (Eb ?? → G / D),

? chord bVI ?? instead of solving on V7, it can be solved on first with the fifth in the bass (Ab ?? → C / G) (example 4)".

Ufff,It’s too difficult for me in theory, I would have to see it :slight_smile:
Who has a profile on YT and can do a video about it? :smiley:

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#26

This might be of use:

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#27

Diminished chords can go up or down. In jazz they are used a lot to connect chords a whole step apart.

So In the key of C you have

I- C Maj 7
vii°/ii- C#°7
ii- D Minor 7
vii°/iii- D#°7
iii- E minor 7
vii°/IV- E°7
IV- F Maj 7
vii°/V- F#°7
V- G7
vii°/vi- G#°7
vi- A minor 7
vii°/vii- A#°7
vii°- B half diminished 7

Note that since diminished 7 chords are symmetrical (built in minor thirds) hat every note is actually a root note. So G#°7 = G#BDF. It’s the same chord as B(Cb)/D/F/Ab Diminished. Also these diminished chords are really just a rootless 7b9 chord. I’d you looked at G7b9- GBDFAb. You can see that there is a B°7 within the Chord. This is why B°7 can lead to C- as it has a dominant function.

Basically these secondary diminished chords are rootless 7b9 Secondary Dominants.

So vii°/ii is just a rootless VI7(b9/)ii.
A C# E G Bb.

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#28

…in other words, we have… 13 diatonic chords?
…and now we can connect it with the modal interchange :heart_eyes:

Oh no,not him,not again :wink: thanks anyway :smiley:

#29

You can find the same concept in detail in the work of Barry Harris

#30

Title please :slight_smile: any books etc he wrote?

#31

The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar.

Which I hope you googled in the last 16 hours rather than waiting for me to tell you.

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#32

Three Note Voicings and Beyond…great book that I’ve been working on over the past few months. Highly recommended. Good call.

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#33

There are a few basic rules I was taught when studying jazz arranging that proved to be very useful when transferred on guitar, both in analyzing several stock voicings and coming up with new ones. Given that one already has a good grasp of the basic chord qualities-maj7, dom7, min7 and m7b5- at least in drop2 and all inversions, here’s how it works:
-In any voicing, substitute 9 for I. For dominant chords b9 and #9 can also be appropriate.
-In any voicing, substitute 11 for 3. However, if we want the 3rd to be included in the voicing, as in the case of minor chords or when the 11 is #, then use 11 for 5.
-In any voicing, use 13 for 5. Can be b13 in dominant chords.

Of course the above subs can be applied in combination. A wide variety of useful, common practice voicings can be generated this way.
A next logical step to take is see if certain shortcuts can be taken. Here’s an example:
Chord: C maj7.
Notes: C E G B
Sub 9 for 1: D E G B…now, that’s an Em7. So, for Cmaj9, I can play any Em7 voicing over C.

Another example, taking the previous a bit further:
Sub both 9 for 1 and #11 for 3: D F# G B…now, that’s a G maj7. So, for C maj7/9/#11 (C Lydian that is) I can play any Gmaj7 voicing over C.

You get the idea. :slight_smile:

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#34

Well put. I teach expansions of the harmony/superimpositions in a similar way.

The only thing I’d add is that I think in terms of exploring new sounds away from the basic seventh chord harmony it’s good to start with 1 to 9, 5 to 11, and/or 5 to 13, (including all sharp and flat options you listed) before adjusting 3 or 7.

That way initially the more important tones to defining the chord quality - 3 and 7 - stay constant while tensions/extensions are added to replace the less important tones, especially if there is a bass player/other instruments present. The adjustments have a better chance of still ‘sounding like the chord.’

Then when we turn 3 into 11 or 3 into 9 we lose some of the definition of the original chord type but that can be an extremely positive thing and very much the effect desired. I think it’s just good to be aware how many ‘degrees’ away from the original harmony we’re getting.

For superimpositions I think of this in thirds, e.g Cma7 Em7 Gma7 Bm7 D7 F#m7b5 Am7 (Cma7) for Cmaj13#11, C lydian. For my personal tastes, playing a D7 isn’t something I like using as an implication of Cmaj13#11, but I like the ones ‘under’ it - mostly because they still have at least either a 3 or a 7.

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#35

It really is a vast territory, which is a good thing because there’s plenty of room for experimentation and developing a personal approach. I use other techniques as well, based on superimposing certain structures over different roots, especially triads with one added note. Beautiful, rich voicings, with strong modal flavor.

There are many great books on the subject, of course. For a really thorough approach, I would suggest Bill Dobbins’ A Creative Approach To Jazz Piano Harmony, it’s an amazing source of superimposing concepts. Even for those who don’t read staff notation, don’t fret! If one knows chord symbols and Drop voicings then one can benefit from the material presented.

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#36

Great book indeed. I think a lot of folks probably face their first experiences with rootless voicings before they have the sound of the progressions they’re working on firmly in mind. I like to supplement the new with some solid work on knowing the roots first. Drop 2’s and rootless stuff can be kind of mind blowing, and well worth the time spent. I think developing some keyboard skills in parallel can help folks get their ear around the structures. Anyhow, just random thoughts. Nice to see folks discussing this stuff. :slight_smile:

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