So … in your life experience there’s been no difference in eating at Burger King or a fine restaurant? No difference no name apparel and fine clothing? You’re not being very objective here. Bragging rights only? Ever hear of Consumer Reports?
A $10k guitar? So the Caparison I bought once retailed at $3.6k and it plays , sounds and was considerably better than Every $1k guitar I’ve ever owned! Build quality, intonation, no dead spots, perfect playability… and I can say the same for all of the other higher end guitars I’ve owned.
I do agree in diminishing returns. There is a point where you are paying for customization
, aesthetics, etc
There’s really good guitars out there in the $1k range but production guitars in that price range aren’t always consistent
For example… the fender players are a crapshoot… they look nice but don’t play that well… and sound weak… you’re investing more $$$ in $800 to $1k + instrument…
Exactly that, my reasons for the signatures it only the neck and body specifics, like the YJM or SRV. These are quirky enough to be hard to get elsewhere. I’d even be interested in the Jeff Beck model for instance, or a nice EJ version. These seem to fit my requirements more than a standard model.
There was a time when I had decided high price was my solution, I had not opportunity to run the racks as you can do in the USA, being in India I’d be lucky if there were two strats in the shop. So I went boutique, the guitars from Grosh, Lentz and Suhr, were spectacular and 100% zero issues. It’s what I was banking on, buy once, cry once.
I still have the Lentz, it’s got a lot of bragging attributes, but if you play it, you’d know immediately it’s something special. And it’s worth three times what I paid today.
As I’m now, I’ve been wanting a great cowboy guitar for a long time, I was smitten by them damn Martins but 10k LMFAO. But I then found out about YAMAHA customs, same if not better guitars, half the price, double the love
That’s irrelevant to the discussion. but they most definitely will sound better and play better on higher quality instruments and gear… just like anyone would using better quality materials in their line of work.
Yeah, but that’s a very different thing than “they offer more value.” Rather, they offer a neck profile you happen to like more, but at a premium price, right?
For me the modern Fender Strat profile is pretty much a sweet spot, but that’s preference, not “value.”
For me, well… my PERSONAL experience is I’ve played a handful of absolutely exceptional “cheaper” guitars. In particular, I remember playing one of the first generation of PRS SE Singlecuts that was so good, passing them around with a buddy who was in the market and eventually bought that one, it was actually better than the real-deal PRSes we were comparing it to. It was also head and shoulders above all the other PRS SEs we played that day save for one that was also surprisingly good, that I bought. And, I think this is probably part of the folklore with Fender, every once in a while you pick up a Mexican strat that just has a ton of mojo to it, and sounds and plays WAY nicer than it has any right to.
So, I don’t think it’s categorically true that “expensive” guitars are always better than “cheap” ones.
What I HAVE found, though, is they tend to be more consistent. I own two Suhrs and have played a bunch more over the years, and every single one of them has been at least “great.” I haven’t played a single dog. Some of them - and I got lucky, my Modern 6 is one - are just goddamned magical and I don’t know what it is but I swear that guitar is alive. But, I’d have no problem ordering one blind (as I did this, it was a custom order, and it wasn’t even my normal preferred specs, I wanted something to compliment a different guitar and it just happened to blow my expectations well out of the water - clarity and cut that I’ve never heard in a mahogany bodied guitar, for one, as a guy who’s a Strat player at heart) and being confident that the guitar that I take out of the case when it shows up is going to kick all sorts of ass.
And I think that confidence is what you start to lose a bit, as you get into cheaper and cheaper guitars. Put me in a room with three Suhrs and I’ll be pretty sure that one or two will blow me away but they’ll all be great. With American Strats, that might be more like ten, and maybe it’s more like 20-30 Mexican Strats (though, at least in the mid-teens, Fender’s consistency was getting really, really good, and I’d be curious if I walked into a Guitar Center today what I might think).
But I’m extremely confident that you could find a couple Mexican Strats that can go neck and neck with anything Fender produces, if you spent the time looking.
My original point was basically that CNC manufacturing is improving/has improved consistency by leaps and bounds! So yes, I agree and I think the “mojo” effect has probably only increased over time.
My understanding was Fender invested a LOT in automation in the early 2000s I think, not just in CNC machining but in finishing, etc, and (IMO) it shows. I was really impressed by the consistency in what I was playing, for the price, last time I spent some real time in a music shop (which was pre-pandemic ).
It’s interesting how guitars stopped being “tools” a long time ago and are more “lifestyle” items now, similar to watches. That’s how we guitarists ended up “playing authentic”, and paying thousands of dollars for a klon overdrive.
Would love a Rolex but a cheap quartz watch will be factually better at timekeeping, and throwing a tantrum for how special I think my Rolex is would probably not change that.
This all depends on which metrics we are judging by and which are the most important to us individually. I agree that we now are in an age where the differences between the two extremes have diminished considerably, and barring the organic materials aspect from the equation, we have a lot of control as the consumer/end user to make those differences even smaller if we choose to.
A lot of this tends to be over simplified as well.
I suppose value is a very personal “preference”. I think these questions we can only answer for ourselves. What I consider as good value for me may not suite everybody else, which is fine and how it should be.
Guitars as tools? Not a chance, it’s all emotional, ego related etc etc by now. Hell a pen used to be a pen to me, till I got into it
It’s all this “fine” this and that, like dining, cutlery, writing instruments, etc.
I tell you, we humans got good at making nails. Tools and food became recreational, and with that came a lot of indulgence. This I suppose is refinement and progress.
Enjoy the selective happy times, but then also do enjoy the decline
In the specific case of Fender, I appreciate how they started paying attention to the market and decided to start using bone/tusq nuts on their mid-range models as opposed to whatever plastic they used before. A small win in our never-ending chase for tone.
Also, the second-hand guitar market poses a stiff competition against the manufacturers. A direct example of it is the Fender HM reissue that retails for about the same price as used instruments from the original 80s run. To be fair, both are fantastic guitars imho, but I ended up getting the “vintage” one to see if it could help channel my inner Greg Howe LOL.
My only qualm with buying older (80s and 90s) used instruments is that there are some things that just get worse with age. Frets, etc. I’m not much of a tech guy so refretting a 90s Ibanez isn’t in the cards for me, sadly
I still think that’s a very different thing, though, “value for ME” vs “value.” Back when Fender had an American Standard Strat as an option, and they cost $999, that was insane value for your money, compaered to a similar quality American-made guitar from any other luthier. they tried to hike the price over $1k a few times and never quite managed to do so… which I think is why they ultimately discontinued the line and introduced a new model name for what used to be the “American Standard.” Now, an American Performer is $1400-1500, and an American Professional is more like 1900-2k.
Value to YOU starts to take into account preferences - I like guitars with large frets (medium jumbo or higher) and flat radiuses (Fender’s current 10" is about as low as I like), and guitars without either aren’t interesting to me. That doesn’t mean they don’t offer good value - they absolutely can, it’s just not a guitar 'm going to get on with. Jumbo frets aren’t a “better value” than mediums, in that they’re no more expensive to buy or install than mediums or vintage fretwire; the qualoity of that work is where the value falls.
Does that make sense? and, I don’t think you can really argue that an artist signature model is going to have better fretwork than an American Professional, unless there are different finishing steps (PLEK or something) being done as part of that artist model that another guitar from the same production line but jist a different model isn’t getting.
Don’t want to argue with you brother Drew, I’ve said my piece, it’s just personal for me, I write from my point of view, and I respect yours.
This is all very subjective, I think you guys should chill out a bit and just enjoy different point of views. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And that’s all there is to say about our different perspectives.
I guess my point is, if we call “value” a purely subjective assessment and not a more objective cost-to-quality that exists independent of preference, then it becomes absolutely impossible to discuss value with other players. And THAT isn’t a good thing, considering we’re all here to discuss things.
I get what your saying but the fact is it’s always been a silly notion, given this is an international crowd as well, a normalised view of value is a unicorn at best
I think “value” as such as always been a marketing ploy. Only the person paying the price can make that judgement and neither of us are equal in any sense
But going back to the OG question of used vs new is interesting, but again that’s based on where you’re at and what kind of access you have to used instruments vs new etc. I I were living in the USA, I’d probably never by new
But living in India, I need to buy boutique, cry once, pay once
edit: ironically my #1 is a used MIJ, I traveled to Nepal for a day to buy it and bring it back to India. The things I do for guitar
It always has. You stay in business by selling new guitars, not by someone else selling your guitars used, especially used at a profit for more than what it was priced for new.
Are those the Strat branded ones with the floyd and dimarzio super 3 like in the reh video? I saw one of those once in a pawn shop when I was a teenager and wondered what it was.
But that is exactly what it is, and it IS impossible at times to discuss it because the consensus is loose. On top of it “value” can be assessed and appraised in many ways, and values work on a variable.
You can discuss it, but don’t expect to have an agreement.
For me, I just don’t overthink it. A good guitar is a good guitar, no matter if it’s an oldie but goodie, or if it’s fresh from the factory or luthier.
Personally, I’d go with a new mid-grade guitar that has what I need, that way, nothing happens to my prized, pristine axes. Seeing as how tours are being planned for my progressive thrash metal project, Thy Kingdom, and we may be opening for Shadows Fall, I’m looking at sturdy, harmonically rich performance guitars, not pristine guitars.
That way, if something happens to it, I’m not eating a huge cost in repairs or replacements if something happens.
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