Analysis of "escapes" in specific strumming strumming and picking combinations

Playing Technique
#1

Disclaimer:
A little rabbit hole led me here, and I’m not actually asking about how to improve at performing any of these figures, nor am I asking about whether or not practicing them is useful…and adding to that, this question itself may not be at all useful to anybody. So, I hope this doesn’t come off the wrong way, but if the response is “this is a waste of time/not useful” then, yes, I already know that is extremely likely but sometimes my rabbit holes wind up being fruitful.

That being said…

What do you all think about the techniques required to play the ‘top line’ of these examples (marked ‘strum’) in comparison to the ‘bottom’ line (marked ‘pick’) shown?

Keep in mind anything marked with multiple strings can, for discussion purposes, be roughly 2-3 strings, it doesn’t have to be an exact hit of that exact quantity of strings. Anything marked as a single string would have to be exactly that string.

EDIT: Realized after posting I can post images directly inline.

#1 Outside “grabs”

Strumming vs crosspicking1, outside with 'grabs'
Strumming vs crosspicking1, outside with 'grabs'1176×408 17.6 KB

#2 “Middle pluck” vs fours roll

Strumming vs crosspicking2, "middle", fours roll
Strumming vs crosspicking2, "middle", fours roll1178×379 16.1 KB

#3 “Skips”, inside and outside

Strumming vs crosspicking3, skips, inside and outside
Strumming vs crosspicking3, skips, inside and outside1179×413 16.7 KB

#4 “Threes”

Strumming vs crosspicking4, threes
Strumming vs crosspicking4, threes1183×371 14.9 KB

I have thoughts about them but keeping post length down to start, seeing if anybody has any input or observations from trying these.

#2

Mike Stern plays your first example and changes his picking motion to do it:

If you watch this in slow motion you can see very clearly how it works. Specifically, he uses a more Gypsy style approach with the flexed wrist so he can get a very large pickstroke that can cover four strings. Two, it’ a USX motion so the downstrokes will hit all the strings but the upstroke only hits one.

#3

That’s cool! That’s definitely the one, of all of them, that feels easiest to me. I’d say the second measure of the ‘skips’ one is the hardest.

#4

I’m not sure what the goal of this is, but the second thing I don’t know that I’ve ever seen anyone do that in a musical scenario so it seems a little academic to me. But in general if you’re trying to figure out stuff like this, I would encourage you to think about which joint motions produce a picking motion that can hit the strings you are trying to hit. Whenever you need to play multiple strings fast only certain motions can really do that.

That’s why Gypsy type players use the form that Mike uses. Mike is using the USX form which is why the upstrokes can only play one note. If you want the upstrokes and the downstrokes to play notes, then you need the trapped form which is more flexed, like what Olli Soikkeli does:

Then you can mute the outside strings to get just the middle note, like Joscho does here:

#5

Interesting - and I’m definitely being hyper theoretical here, no doubt about it.

In a nutshell, I’m curious about the similarities and differences between the top/bottom on each image, and there are certain strumming moves that I teach a lot and have gotten comfortable with that I realize share some similarities with double escape scenarios. And reflecting on stuff you’ve said about double escape motions, it seems like sometimes some country/folk ‘pluck and strum’ figures give us sort of like a stepladder of difficulty (which is I know is different than a progression of steps to have success with the movement) because of the mix of, well, plucked notes and strummed notes.

For example, this ‘morphing’:

strcrje
strcrje2298×1018 133 KB

#6

I understand the desire to construct logical sequences that can lead a person from one thing to another. Every instructional book since the dawn of time has attempted this. But you have you have to look at physically what is happening.

Here’s Molly Tuttle’s strumming motion:

And here’s Molly Tuttle’s double escape motion:

They operate very differently. Different arm position, different joint motions. They don’t look the same and anecdotally they don’t feel similar in actual execution. The double escape motion doesn’t feel “strummy” because there is no arm twisting. It just feels like moving your hand side to side in a motion of alternate picking.

If someone wants to learn one of these motions, it seems super roundabout to try to “morph” from some different motion to the “target” motion. Just go right for the target motion and try to do it, using a wide variety of phrases that require it.

Is it a good idea to try to learn rhythm techniques and lead techniques together? For sure. I think variety is great. There is also lots of research to back this up, variously called “interleaved practice” or “randomized practice”. The idea is that bouncing around between different types of phrases forces you to constantly recall the different motions after time away, and this strengthens the memory of the motion.

But that’s not the same thing as “morphing”. I’m doubtful that morphing is a thing. But if it is, I think it’s likely to occur between motions that are much more similar than these two.

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Rhythm vs Lead Playing
#7

Excellent, that is super useful to see side by side It would be really interesting to see her play some phrases that very gradually shift from one ‘type’ to the other, and see whether the movement gradually changes, or if there winds up being some breaking point where she’d have to decide to do one type of move or another.

Sometimes these things are intellectual curiosity, sometimes for my own advancement, sometimes just exploring ideas so I can help students better. In this case it’s much more so curiosity than strategy, in relation to double escape.

#8

Switching between these two forms is one of the discussion points in the interview which we pulled out and made into a YT clip. The discussion starts around 2 mins or so:

TLDR there isn’t a gradual shift, the lead playing form operates differently, and requires the bridge anchored position which she assumes immediately for lead lines. Molly is aware of this, and talks about it a little in the clip. David Grier also discusses this in our interview with him.

I understand what you’re getting at, i.e. there is a semicircular nature to both motions. But that doesn’t mean that the way Molly is generating the motions is similar, only that the resulting path the pickstroke follows may broadly look U-shaped.

If you’re trying to figure out how to do chord things and single note things together, you’re better off using motions that are more mechanically similar. David Grier in Angeline the Baker is a better example of this:

The strummy stuff that David does here around the one-minute mark is a lot more like his lead playing motion, just with a little more elbow. The motions the wrist are making are essentially the same. Note that that the anchor point doesn’t change, he’s still grazing the bridge pins. If you want to cover more distance with a form more similar to your lead playing form, this is how you’d do it.

You can click into the slow motion version of this on the platform to get a better look at what’s going on:

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