Another DWPS post - help!

Hi - I’m working on my DWPS - in particular pentatonics. Ascending feels a lot better then descending, although I find it hard to play on the bottom/wound strings - I wonder if this is a hand position issue?

Descending feels a lot worse that ascending - it feels like I’m trying to wrist and fingers but it feels a bit awkward. If I try to play faster descending than I inevitably hit strings on the upstroke.

Here’s the video - any help or insight would be appreciated.

Also, I have a video where I am playing my usual jazz stuff - picking with legato.

Any idea what my motion mechanics are? Am I crosspicking with a neutral slant?

Thanks everyone!

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Hi Geoff! Good clips, and nice playing.

I use the term “motion mechanic” to mean the source of the picking movement itself. It’s important that everyone be able to determine what this. In your case, you probably already know that there is wrist movement happening. If you roll up your sleeve, you’ll see whether or not there is also a forearm component to what you’re doing. There is not likely an elbow component, from what I can tell.

Re: crosspicking, “neutral” has nothing to do with it, but the path of the picking motion has everything to do with it. In pickslanting, the pick buries itself in the strings on one pickstroke, and escapes the strings on the opposite pickstroke. When you use dwps, the downstrokes get stuck between the strings and the upstrokes escape.

In crosspicking, the pick starts and ends above the strings on every pickstroke. In other words, it is always escaped, except at the moment of pick/string contact, at the midpoint (approximately) of the pickstroke. When done correctly, there is not necessarily anything wrong with this - it simply enables flexibility in string changes.

In your case, there is a tendency toward both types of string changes in your playing. If you film yourself from a slightly more Code-friendly “down the strings” angle, you’ll be able to see these two motion paths happening in your playing. You can do this with a tripod, just point the headstock a little more toward the camera when you play. If you have a slow motion mode on the phone, use it. It will produce more detail in the video, even when played at normal speed.

If you do this, what I think you will notice is that the moments in these licks which feel faster / smoother to you follow a pickslanted path, where the downstroke buries itself in the strings. This happens as you’ve pointed out more frequently on the ascending side of these licks, and especially on the higher strings.

By contrast when you are playing more slowly, you may notice the pick attempts to lift away from the strings at both the beginning and end of the pickstroke. Again, this isn’t a bad thing when done correctly. However it’s a bad thing if you don’t know you’re doing it, can’t control it, and can’t stop from flip-flopping between the two approaches in the middle of a phrase. Having both approaches at your disposal is great, but it may take some time to parse out which is which.

In the mean time, if you want to encourage the pickslanted approach, so you can identify what it feels like, there is a simply way to do this, especially for downward pickslanting: the rest stroke. I won’t recap that here, but please check out other threads in this section of the forum, like those from @aliendough and @Hanky_Pooh to see some of those discussions.

If you do film a slightly more “down the strings” attempt, we’d love to see it.

So, rest stroke: that’s your mission should you choose to accept it!

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One more thing I’d add, which we’ve discussed recently on the forum, is that a lot of players have trouble with the ascending side of two-note-per-string pentatonic phrases. The fact that this actually appears to be easier side for you is great - that means you have surmounted the string-tracking aspect of moving from the low to high strings. Nice work on that. Others may benefit from your thoughts on how you’re achieving that.

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Thanks Troy - that’s very insightful and helpful!

I realized I didn’t correctly upload my second video which refers to the question about whether I was crosspicking

here’s the video:

I’ve read through the old posts around rest strokes and have tried it over the last couple weeks but I think I need a lot more practice. One thing I find hard about the rest stroke is that I find it so damn loud and aggressive sounding/feeling - that’s why the gypsy jazz guys use it right? I actually play in a gypsy jazz group (w/ non rest stroke technique) but have not been able to incorporate rest stroke technique. Should I be able to play the rest stroke and have it sound “light”?

As to why I am better with ascending pentatonics, the only thing I can think of is that when I was a teenager I always practiced ascending pentatonics - when I reached the top I played 3 notes and then descended using a upward slant-esque way. So, I didn’t practice much descending pentatonics starting on a down stroke.

Again, thanks for the help!

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The rest stroke actually has no effect on the sound because it happens after the note is played. Unless your pick is a time machine!

If rest strokes are loud it is only because players hit the string hard to begin with. As an example, there is no way to rest stroke the high ‘e’ string, since there is no string above it to rest on. And yet Gypsy players get a perfectly fine snap on that string all the same. The snap and volume comes from the strength of the attack / amount of contact, not the fact that the pick hits something after the note is sounded.

Short answer is yes, you can definitely do a gentle rest stroke. Watch the following clip in slow motion for the magic:

https://troygrady.com/interviews/joscho-stephan/clips/arpeggio-min-rest-strokes-soft/

Try a loose grip and less force, and you’ll do a gentle rest stroke no problem.

Re: pickslanting vs. other movements such as crosspicking and stringhopping, this additional clip you posted looks quite different than the others. I’ll let you be the judge of whether you think the motion path is pickslanted or doubly escaped. You should be able to spot it pretty easily.

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