Answering Forum/Guitar Questions in a Live Stream

Teacher's Lounge
#11

Glad you saw it, and you liked the answers!

Yes, I preach about how genetics absolutely play a factor in what one can achieve. I do not say it to make people feel like they shouldn’t try and better themselves, but to help them have realistic expectations.

I’m lucky to be able to do what I do, but as you stated, disciplined practice is what took me as far as I’ve come. If I didn’t keep pushing myself, and doing my best to play with accuracy, I couldn’t do everything I currently do.

Not everyone can get in the NBA or become Mr. Olympia through hard work alone. The genetics need to be there too! But, we can always improve and get better than we were the day before, no matter what our genetics may allow :slightly_smiling_face:

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#12

For everyone who would like to see the answers, here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/live/4q91x5ZUACs?si=tGgpvMyXT1mD-f5c&t=1950

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#14

Different motions have different speed limits. Tall ergonomic mouse RDT will always be faster than wrist-forearm, for example. Also, speed is there from day one; grinding for hours to increase speed is not how it works. What repetition does is build accuracy and hand synchronization, not speed. If genes matter, it is only at the very extreme ends at which point the music is too imperceptible to the average ear to even matter. Not to mention the fact that the fretting hand will become the limiting factor at that point, limiting the amount of interesting things you can play.

These are all lessons I believe Troy and crew have taught us. Correct me if I’m wrong on any of it.

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#15

Where are the studies that prove any of this? I would hand-wave and say classical teachers have taught for hundreds of years and they are likely to have figured out what works, but that’s not a proof, either. Note that they like slow practice and other things that many guitar people reject! I think you just have to try what makes sense to you and hopefully have great results! :grinning:

#16

Yes, different movements have different speed limits. Totally!

One of these days I plan on making a video talking about finding speed, and then how to push it further. There’s a difference, and I think people confuse the two.

I’m definitely faster than when I first learned how to move quickly, and that’s a result of trying to hit faster and faster speeds. Try something at 200, then 201, then 202, keep pushing harder and harder.

If people can increase their sprinting speed, then why not picking speed or fretting speed?

Genetics determine your personal speed limit, and ability to push things further. They also help determine one’s interest in putting in the effort! Some of us, like me, actually enjoy putting in the work. A lot of people don’t. Definitely a genetic component there.

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#17

I think in all discussions about “guitar speed” we need to clarify which of these two broad challenges we are talking about:

  1. finding a motion or technique capable of the desired speed
  2. learning new vocabulary with a fast motion that we already have

These problems are different and require a different approach to be solved. Confusing one type of task for the other can be disastrous!

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#18

That list is incomplete, it is missing a critical point,

  • increasing speed

That’s the whole point about the metronome, 1bpm, etc., and it’s exactly what a pianist from a conservatory would tell you. So, how can we reconcile that? :slight_smile:

#19

@kgk is raising the interesting question: can you increase the speed of a particular motion? Let’s say you can tremolo at 200bpm with a wrist motion. Can you increase that speed to 220bpm with metronome practice?

I think the view of @Troy and CTC generally is that you can’t. “Increasing speed” of a tremolo is really just finding a different and faster motion.

I think @milehighshred has a different view, which seems to be that you can increase your speed by pushing yourself like a bodybuilder does in the gym.

I think the first view is right but this is a really interesting point that I’d love to hear more on. I

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#20

@PickOfConsciousness I cannot speak for CtC, but I think that they’re saying this:

  • Find a motion that’s good out of the box.
  • Start with that and quickly see what is possible.

This makes sense to get started! I don’t think that they’re saying that one can’t go faster or develop alternate motions.

Now, let me provide you two forms of proof that one can go faster:

  • @Troy can play nearly any motion known to man, and he learned and polished them all, with many starting from zero. So, he had many “bad” motions and improved them! This is an amazing accomplishment.
  • @milehighshred has, through sheer force of will and moving his metronome by 1bpm in some cases, reached speeds that are absolutely insane, 22nps. Remember that a metronome at 200bpm playing 16th notes is merely 13.3nps to put 22nps into perspective! He couldn’t do that when he started, he had to earn it, click by click, hour after hour… and that’s also why his rhythm is so good, he won’t advance the metronome until everything sounds great.

In summary, yes, you can go faster, and @milehighshred explains how, very clearly.

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#21

Absolutely :smiley: Get them gains!

#22

Indeed!

Something Troy and I have talked about is how I would experiment with different motions, positions, etc. when trying to hit higher and higher speeds. He and I have talked about the importance of experimenting with new and different things to find what works.

#23

I don’t think this is what @Troy did, he may of had bad motions (like stringhopping) but he discovered different, more optimal motions. I don’t think he improved any bad motion, I think with all his successful motions it was more a matter of learning to stay locked in and coordinated with the optimal motion.

Isn’t that what he’s saying here:

I would argue that @milehighshred’s tall ergonomic mouse DT motion was always capable of the speeds he is able to hit and that his practice helps more with the coordination aspect of his picking and syncing up his left hand.

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#24

In that case, I think the classical teacher would be implicitly assuming that the student already has the correct motions in place, and that the maximum speed of these motions is sufficient for whatever the target tempo is. So the task in that case is my second scenario: to bring a new piece of vocabulary up to a speed that you already have.

I believe this is exactly what John was doing in the two examples he “metronomed-up” at the start of the livestream. Both examples were clearly below John’s speed ceiling, so again it was a challenge of learning or “cleaning up” vocabulary rather than increasing speed.

#25

Nah. I couldn’t hit those speeds in the beginning. I had to push things further to get faster.

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#26

This discussion is reminding me of people saying there’s no such thing as over training, only under recovery. It’s the same thing.

That riff/lick is not something I could ever do my fastest picking/fretting speeds. But, I increased the speed of what was played. Cleaning it up to play it faster sounds like I increased the speed. Two sides of the same coin?

Well, as I’ve said, if we can increase sprinting speed, why is picking speed excluded from this?

At the end of the day, if you can play something faster now than you previously could, then you increased your speed. Whatever you want to call it, you got something faster.

I also get the impression people are saying there is no way to increase speed, you just unlock the potential that was already there. If that’s the case, then it sounds like you’re just chasing your genetic potential for how fast you can move. Same thing with chasing your genetic potential for strength. Either way, you learned how to go faster, so you increased your speed.

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#27

Honestly, I don’t think questions like this are that useful. You have to remember that most people who ask these things are asking because they are having some type of performance issue. And in most of these cases, we already know what to do to address that. We can take measurements, we can look at their technique, we can address issues with the current technique if there are any, we can look at different techniques, and so on. Once you do all this, you’re probably already getting the improvement you need, and if not, you probably know why.

I definitely didn’t do this. Anything I’ve learned how to do was to some extent by stumbling across techniques which do what I was trying to do, becoming aware of what I was doing, and streamlining from there. There was never any sense of improving a “bad” motion, whatever that even is.

I don’t think this is what happened. John has a very specific set of techniques he uses to reach these speeds that requires a certain form and certain muscles to engage. Training was no doubt critical to improving coordination and endurance, but I think it’s clear that he discovered the technique first and then polished it with training.

I’m sure there were some speed inreases as he did this, but again, I don’t think this is the reason people ask this question all the time. They ask because they are having performance issues and want to know how to fix them. Is the answer to slowly raise the metronome to reach John’s speed? Almost never.

I know you know this because I’ve seen your reverse dart motion after we released that lesson and it’s awesome. Of course it takes training to develop useful coordination with these techniques. But it’s clear that you have this performance from doing that technique because of the extreme range it operates in.

TLDR I think this question of training is mostly settled in any way that really matters. Most people who ask it are asking about large gaps in performance that are more likely addressed with things we already know how to fix.

#28

Okay, so what does “polishing a technique with training” mean? If I can tremolo at 200 bpm for 4 measures before tensing up and slowing down and I want to increase my stamina to 16 measures, how do I do that?

#29

Excellent question! This is my point. Most of the time these discussions really mask more practical concerns which are more easily addressed. So asking the theoretical question is less useful to me than just asking about the thing that you’re actually working on.

Ok so in your case, I’d want to look at the test results and technique first. Which technique is it, is it being done optimally, and is it already at or near the maximum. Because if you can’t move much faster than this then there’s not a whole lot of room to ask for more performance in terms of endurance either.

By comparison if you’re using John’s technique which has 100 more bpm in reserve, asking for measures of 200 is a lot more doable. In other words, not all techniques are created equal. This is why when you look at players in speed-focused styles like extreme metal, you see all these adaptations for fast playing and endurance playing. They’re not just doing the same thing everyone else is doing plus more training.

Finally, we have some tips on improving endurance with wrist motion in this lesson here:

As a companion to this, we also have this lesson on speed but you could argue they are essentially very similar - performance:

The thing about the speed lesson which is important is that it shows you, visually, that what someone calls “tension” may not really be lack of relaxation. It could be the technique varying in ways that only the camera can see, causing muscles to work against each other, pulling in opposing directions, leading to rapid fatigue.

The solution to this particular problem isn’t so much relaxation as learning to trigger the motion the same way all the time, without the random variation and internal conflict. My point here is that even when training obviously helps, it’s important to know what specifically is being trained. Just doing more reps of something doesn’t guarantee anything.

In your case, all of this only works to increase your endurance if the performance is actually available. Sixteen bars of 200 is no joke. I’m personally much more likely to get that if I use the higher-performance reverse dart technique in the “tall mouse” lesson, or if I’m using a purely rotation EVH-style motion, than I am using other motions I know how to do. Elbow can probably do that too but I never learned it.

So those are the steps I would take. If you’d like our assistance, just make a TC in your account - we’re happy to take a look!

#30

Well, let’s think about this. Initially, you presumably couldn’t do USX, DSX and DBX (all three!) fast enough for your wishes, so you presumably went through phases of introspection and incremental improvement. You turned the laggards from “bad” (in the sense of “sub-optimal regarding speed”, but I should have likely typed “insufficient,” sorry about that) to “good” (fast enough)! I still find that quite impressive.

There are endless variables with each technique from one’s posture in the chair to details of the pick to grip pressure to… and one has to keep on pushing their particular technique to go faster. Naturally, the law of diminishing returns comes up (progress slows), and people asymptotically reach their physical limit, but there is a methodical process of improvement.

Right, get the basic motions exactly in place, and some students will be fast, and some will never make it, but they have to try; there is a system of regimented practice that the classical people have perfected, and it involves incredibly good sequenced practice material, metronomes, and years of particular practice to steadily go faster and be able to engage increasingly complex material. It’s like a selection process, really. The students just cannot play fast at first, that comes with time, and improvement (where a huge amount of it is in their brain, as well, to better manage the increasing demands). Indeed, some of their brains (if they start early enough) develop perfect pitch, that cannot be developed by adults, if I understand.

#31

No I didn’t do this. That’s what I’m trying to explain. There has always been a period of trial and error resulting in stumbling across some specific overall technique that “just works” for whatever type of phrase I was trying to play. So I wouldn’t say I made gradual improvements to “USX” or “DSX”, because these aren’t techniques, they’re just ways of describing the motion path of a pick. The technique is a specific way of holding the instrument and moving the pick. And by experimenting with these variables, you can find different techniques you can do, and the escape is going to be whatever it is for that technique.

To use a recent example, I figured out that I could do a very fast technique with a particular form and type of wrist motion that uses a trailing edge grip and looks like tapping. Due to various factors which we now understand, it happens to be a DSX motion. We featured this in our lesson, and once other players learned that this particular combination of ingredients works, many of them were able to reproduce them and achieve similar results.