Coltrane didn’t “figure out” the entire contents of the Slonimsky book by himself did he?
Brecker took lessons from Allard.
These people had teachers, even if in some cases “lessons” just amounted to listening to other people on the band stand.
There’s a good example in your post actually, Page took lessons from Mclaughlin.
Essentially we are all self-taught. No one is self-taught. These are both true IMHO.
I agree only with half of that. We know way more today than we knew a couple of years ago. And knowledge should not be hidden. There’s no need to figure out everything by yourself, and if you’re happy and satisfied by adaptiing the knowlledge of other people that’s totally fine.
Problems occur when you start to tell that people they HAVE to do something in a certain way.
IMO music teaching did a lot of mistakes in the past.
I met a Gypsie player about 20 years ago and he told me a couple of things he learned - which is basically DWPS (with that famous upstroke) and change strings after even number of notes. I’d say that is approx. 95% of the Yngwie/Eric approach, And it has been tought way before they got famous.
The problem here is that lots of try and error frustration could have been avoided if they’d not only teach what to do and clearify the WHY.
In the end every player has to find his way, but the time to do so can be optimized.
“Coltrane didn’t “figure out” the entire contents of the Slonimsky book by himself did he?”
I should have specified “…all the greatest rock and jazz guitar playing legends.”
"These people had teachers, even if in some cases “lessons” just amounted to listening to other people on the band stand.
There’s a good example in your post actually, Page took lessons from Mclaughlin."
I took lessons also. However, I never had anyone tell me anything along the lines of “When you playing this lick you need to angle the pick this way for this particular pick stroke and then you need to angle the pick the opposite way when you pick the next note in the lick…”
Perhaps I should have specified that but I thought it was understood that lots of rock and jazz legends have taken lessons but still figured things out for themselves regarding finding the exact picking motion as well as the best way of angling or slanting the pick. Nobody ever told me how to pick in the style and the thoroughness Troy Grady uses to teach the people who subscribe to his educational materials.
As a matter of fact, the most detailed advice on picking technique was “Don’t move your forearm. Just use your wrist.” So when I refer to a guitarist figuring things out for himself, I’m including people who had lessons but never had any specific, Troy Grady style instructions on how to pick.
I hope that clears things up.
Allard used to put his fingers in his sax students mouths to check their tongue position/embouchure etc.
Sorry I’m picking on you a fair bit about this, but I think the picture you’re presenting here is 1. highly prevalent and 2. highly damaging to new and improving players.
“Sorry I’m picking on you a fair bit about this, but I think the picture you’re presenting here is 1. highly prevalent and 2. highly damaging to new and improving players.”
Prigmnr, could you elaborate on that some? I wrote a lot of things and I’m not sure what it is specifically that I wrote that you feel is “highly damaging to new and improving players…”
Thank you Prigmnr.
I just think a statement like
Is probably not true and has the potential to discourage people unnecessarily if they don’t happen to have the knack of figuring out technique on their own.
I think the whole point of something like CtC is to get technique out of the way and allow guitarists to get on with making music.
I think there may be some talking past each other going on here. I hope we can all agree both that a) there’s great value in experimentation and innovation and playing around and figuring things out, and b) having as much knowledge as possible about how things work so we don’t have to reinvent the wheel when we don’t have to is also not a bad thing!
Also seems true both that a) many legendary players have indeed developed their techniques intuitively, and there’s nothing wrong with that; and b) this sort of intuitive physical genius isn’t super common and if there are other perhaps easier paths to learning certain things, we should take advantage of that, while also recognizing that this sort of learning does not preclude also doing your own experimenting, etc.
FYI I appreciate this discussion and don’t want to shut it down, just feel it can get a bit circular sometimes. This particular topic also has many sub-threads woven within it at this point, which can’t help but muddy the discursive waters! As a general rule maybe we (the whole community) should be more inclined to split off conversation into new topics when appropriate. And / or we (the moderators) can try closing topics when they start to get unmanageably long or otherwise seem to be getting less productive.
Brendan, the section of your post which I quoted and especially “this sort of intuitive physical genius isn’t super common” is at the heart of the matter of which I’ve been writing.
While I see tremendous value in what Troy is doing for people who play guitar for a hobby ( which is the vast majority of guitarists, by the way), what I’m writing about right now concerns a small but incredibly important minority of guitarists and those are the ones who have such a tremendous passion for playing their own music on guitar and performing live on stage before large audiences, and the rare God given talent that gives them at lest the chance of making it at the professional level of the rock music industry, that they simply can’t imagine doing anything else for a living. Dedicating their lives to a career outside performing rock 'n roll onstage is unthinkable for these chosen few. As Blackie Lawless of W.A.S.P. fame said: “This industry isn’t looking for people who just want to be professional rock musicians; it’s looking for people who must be professional rock musicians.”
These rare, talented few, with a tremendous passion for their music are the category of people from whom the intuitive physical geniuses who you stated aren’t “super common” are rare for a reason. These are the people who were born to entertain us with their music.Amon the guitarists of this group, men such as Jimi Hendrix (can you imagine a teacher trying to tell Jimi the way he picks is wrong because he’s not holding the pick the way they want him to?), Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, and Yngwie Malmsteen to name some the most influential rock guitarists to ever live, were all musical geniuses.
While I applaud Troy for his work and it’s potentially vital to some guitar hobbyists, I think you would agree that if we could somehow get in a time machine and go back to the past when each of these guitarists was practicing with all their dedication to become the best they could possibly be, that Troy would be overstepping his bounds to tell them they must conform to the tenets of the CTC system so they can make faster progress and become better guitarists. I’m not suggesting Troy, would do that of course, I’m just using an extreme example to make a point, which is: "The true musician geniuses among us who want to dedicate their lives to music must be allowed to play the guitar their own way, whether or not ift conforms to the tenets of the CTC system. The utmost care would have to be taken to avoid possibly squashing their creativity and originality!
Sure, I don’t think we’d want to tell anyone, legend or novice, that they must conform to one specific way of playing. We may suggest a starting point for certain things, but we’re also all about showing how there are lots of ways to do something, whether hold the pick, play a scale, etc.
I’d say Cracking the Code is more descriptive than prescriptive. We like to gather up as much knowledge as we can, from whatever sources might be helpful…and we’re interested in all sorts of ways great guitarists play. They may each have some musical special sauce that can’t be entirely replicated, but the more collective knowledge we have about guitar playing, the better, not only for hobbyists but teachers, professional musicians — everyone.
There can be a certain aura to genius of any sort, which is often attractive, but can also be dangerous insofar as it can make it feel impossible to reach some level of performance even when it actually may be attainable. Genius has many components; some may be innate and others learned in all sorts of complicated ways. But part of our whole premise is that while yes, elite guitar ability is rare, we can hopefully help make it a bit less so 
This “fear of losing the geniuses” is a concept that comes up all that time that is illogical at its core. Do we really honestly think EVH would have been less innovative with teaching? He had teachers. He never listened to them anyway. It would have made zero difference if someone showed him how picking works. Morse learned crosspicking in 9 months at 16, no teacher required. And then he went to music school, learned all the formal stuff, and still continued to innovate. The idea that exposing the greats to knowledge would somehow cause them to never have innovated is a myth. I am aware of no evidence to suggest this happens, and believing things on zero evidence isn’t my style.
Instead, what really happens when you don’t have teaching and knowledge is that many, many awesome musicians with great ideas can’t play stuff. And this is real, because I was that guy for a long time. Hell, I couldn’t alternate pick an arpeggio until last year. Imagine all the tunes I could have written at 15 with that skill. I had notebooks full of stuff I wrote that I couldn’t play because I didn’t have the technique.
I can’t put a number on this, but I would put money on the fact that the level of competence of the average guitar player is much higher right now thanks to the internet than at any point in the '80s or prior. It might have seemed like a golden age because guitar was top 40 music. But the actual number of people with basic technique competence was pretty low. The best kid in any town or battle of the bands might have had some stuff. Everyone behind that guy was weak sauce.
Bottom line, teaching and knowledge equals more music, not less. There is no good evidence to suggest anything else. I will believe that evidence if it’s out there. I’m betting it is not.
This.
I was (am?) that guy too! And believe me a lot of teachers can’t articulate what they are doing or just don’t care to try.
I agree with you that the level of guitar technique is higher now that at any point in the 80s or prior.
The cause is, as always, once a certain level of technique in rock guitar is reached, people take their innovations and build on them. As long as people are trying to excel ( so the 90’s with its horrible grunge and nu metal doesn’t count since it was a backlash against the work ethic needed to be a great guitarist), the bar keeps getting raised. It’s in the nature of things.
When Jimi Hendrix debuted, people were mystified as to how he played so well. Then as people learned his secrets, the bar continued to be raised and it became more and more common to find a guitarist who could play Hendrix songs well.
Jimmy Page was a guitar god in the 70s but by the time Eddie Van Halen made his debut, although Page was still respected, his playing was considered sloppy. Eddie Van Halen was the best new rock guitarist around. Then Yngwie Malmsteen came around and absolutely shattered the bar set by EVH in terms of technical ability. Why? It damn sure wasn’t the internet. A great guitarist once said words something to the effect of “I have reached the level of ability I have because I stood on the shoulders of the giants who preceded me.”
Sure, the internet has contributed to the rise in average competence but if there had been no internet, we’d still be seeing the most technically accomplished guitarists ever because it’s in the nature of things for people to learn from their predecessors and reach new levels of technical greatness. We’d also still have a thriving rock music industry if the internet had never come along but that’s another story.
With respect, I disagree with your comparisons.
Virtually no-one plays Hendrix well! The fact that people believe otherwise is depressing.
Page was always considered somewhat sloppy. But he played with a feel and intensity that’s seriously lacking in most of what followed. GIT et al was responsible for some of the most sterile, unimaginative soulless playing there’s ever been.
It was actually Isaac Newton who was paraphrasing Bernard of Chartres.
Newton, the discoverer of downward apple slanting.
Well it is true for some! For example - practically everyone on CTC! (the ‘naturals’ as @Troy calls them). Even with CTC knowledge the majority of people will need to spend a great deal of time practicing. I’m going to put myself in the line of fire - but I have actually found some of Claus’ youtube videos useful (most of the time I think 'instead of listen to this guy ramble on, I could have been practicing! LOL) - I find that various sources/videos available on the internet have some sort of value and most have some sort of cross over.
That being said, Troy’s content to me, is the most complete package out there.
I’m might pluck up the courage to post a critique video!
You’re not alone, Claus has a lot of useful practice tips and some really cool neoclassical/flamenco licks even if he does talk a lot. In fact I found CTC from a recommendation from one of his videos.
[quote=“AGTG, post:105, topic:244, full:true”]
Montreal543 said “_> I think a good example of what happens when the “just do what feels right” perspective meets the CTC perspective occurs in Troy’s interview of crosspicker David Grier. I’m not sure how many have seen the interview, but if you have, maybe you’re like me and you got a little uncomfortable after about 10 minutes when Grier curtly rejects the entire premise of CTC. I thought it was going to be a rough final 50 minutes to watch. However, Troy responded not defensively, but rather with a great deal of respect and curiosity for Grier’s point of view, and by the end of the interview, the two seemed to have something of a communion around guitar picking problem solving. Maybe others have a different take on that interview - I’d be curious what people thought.”[/quote]
That’s surprising, but perhaps it’s the kind of reaction someone who organically arrived at efficient and fast picking technique would falsely presume.
The thing is, Troy really did crack the code. His experience in the 80’s attempting to emulate the greats was the norm. I, and likely most of you, walked out similar frustrations.
Eventually, I simply came to the conclusion that either me digits was too stubby, or my natural affinity for the instrument wasn’t sufficient, so I resigned myself to utter mediocrity and joined Talkbass.com and learned how to finger pluck a bass like a champ to regain the musical joy that I lost in failing at guitar.
But then I sent my only bass to get a custom neck fit for it and I’ve been waiting on the luthier for months. I picked up my dusty electric guitar and found Troy’s pickslanting primer by happenstance and I now realize there actually is a solution to the roadblocks I’ve faced at playing lead guitar.
Troy is a scholar and a gentleman, a true credit to the guitar teaching community. The things he has discovered are crucial for those who don’t naturally develop proper picking technique. If it wasn’t for him, my guitar would still be collecting dust.
Thanks, Troy!
Did so too for a while.
But more and more I start to dislike him (eventhough i like his playing).
The linked video is a great example for the reasons - he prooves that he didn’t even get the point of slanting, and motivates you to practice over and over even if you don’t know if you do it right.
I see high danger for frustrattion there.
Did I get that right and he bashes Yngwie between the lines?
That’s funny, I see Yngwie disputable as a person, but for sure he has been the inspiration for most high efficient pickers, which would include his own style.