Nevermind. There’s no difference from the practice point of view.
I guess it’s interesting for old musical professors only ))
Without taking things too far out into the weeds, proper naming can help understanding. Can go either way. For example, different views of the 7th mode of ascending melodic minor. The first is technically correct, but masks common usage:
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7
1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7
…the second emphasizes the related shell voicing, 1 3 b7. I use both views depending on context.
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Yes, jazz… they often have different approach. Which I also like.
I’m not very strict in terminology myself, neither consistent. I may, for example, call one and the same chord 7#5 or 7b13. Let’s say I’m playing 13, 7#5, 7. It looks (and it feels) awkward. 13, b13, 7 are more natural to me. Though it may be just for me.
I’m curious where folks are running into altered tensions on guitar outside of jazz, pop charts?
Progrock? Metal (if you consider almost random notes as alterations) 
Some epic stuff like movie scores.
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By the way I found that I sometimes use “Yngwie scale” when playing over v7 chord (harmonic minor with added min7).
Sorry if I’m not really answering the question, but have you spent time using a more CAGED approach?
Using familiar chord shapes as a foundation really helps for memorization.
Hi, Hamsterman. Were you addressing DjangoUntrained?
The CAGED method became a thing after I was already on my path and had memorized Berklee positions. And I started on classical, so CAGED always seemed a backwards way to nirvana for me. My knowledge of the fretboard informs my chord construction far more than knowing a particular “grip” guides my note choices. But hey, scaffold knowledge by any useful means available to us, right?
I studied the CAGED system a few months ago but it didnt really make a lasting impact on my playing. I tend to just play scales from specific notes to fit the chords as besi I can. It didnt occur to me to fit 3nps to the Caged system. I will give it ago though as it might help.
At the risk of sounding esoteric, I actually heard an interesting take on nomenclature from Tom Quayle in a recent Guitar Hour Podcast. I’m sure others have made the same argument and it’s probably also highly context-based but here it goes anyways.
So, the argument was that 7#5 and 7b13 are actually different chords. Yes, the #5 and the b13 are enharmonically equivalent but the implication of having a #5 is that there is no natural 5. So,
G7#5 = G B D# F
G7b13 = G B D F A C Eb
I just thought this was an interesting point.
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Not so esoteric. In jazz the symbols stand in for chordscale possibilities, as opposed to say, the more literal, so-called “cowboy chords,” that are typically treated as physical guitar “grips.”
7#5 signals an altered five, and indicates options for soloing like use of the whole-tone scale. Furthermore, it suggests a natural 9, but does not preclude alteration per se.
Check out the String Fragment System (SFS) taught on this site: Effective Music Practice. In particular, the “SFS Modes” and “SFS Modes 2” courses will show you a powerful way to play 3nps modes all over the neck without having to memorise box patterns. Click on the Premium Courses link. I started doing these courses about 3 months back as a relative beginner player. I can now easily play all modes in all keys all over the neck. I couldn’t even imagine being able to do this previously. He is a great teacher.
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Thanks austway, I’ll check that out
Here’s a direct link to the free SFS Modes Crash Course from EMP. If you like this I’d definitely recommend signing up to his premium courses as austway suggests.
Thanks.
I am very impressed with the EMP site. I have signed up.
The backing tracks are very good too. Nicely ordered into all scales and modes in all keys.
Thanks for the recommendation.
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I usually use standard 4 voice chords, so in that case there’s no actual difference between these chords (1-7-3-#5). 5th is whether implied or not…
Though there’s contextual difference for me.
Hi DjangoUntrained, if you haven’t already, check the Fretboard Visualization Methods thread. My first introduction to “moveable mini positions” was through the The Advancing Guitarist, by Mick Goodrick. I believe it’s important to see the modes on a continuum, not just starting from a root. I’m sure the SFS system must deal with the same, but I found it useful to organize the symmetries into a couple of slightly larger patterns, that when connected, extend to infinity, high and low. Have fun.
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I really need to go back and revisit that thread, and your FordScales thread, @RockStarJazzCat. The way I’ve always looked at scales has been in 2-string 3nps patterns, as a series of interlocking “chunks,” with the caveat that they interlock in both the vertical and horizontal plane (I.e – if you take a two string chunk in the E and A strings, it interlocks into a chunk on the A and D strings… But, also interlocks with a chunk on the same strings but one scale degree higher, and once you get a finite number of patterns and connections down, you can burn through them pretty quickly all over the neck). But, thinking primarily that way, I’ve also definitely found value in also looking at “box” positions or CAGED positions or defined 3nps patterns or whatever, and I feel like there comes a point where all this stuff starts to blur into one anyway.
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Hey there, @Drew, thanks. Yeah, when I’m improvising the patterns kind of fade away. Swinging from branch to branch, the individual trees taken individually, matter less.
The open and closed FordScales I patterns are most relevant to this thread, but it’s actually the chromatic scale of FordScales II where I put my practice energy. If one is not interested in playing anything and everything in all keys, FordScales I pattern is a quick way to get going. Associate mode names with points in the pattern and one is off and running.
I have a vestigial awareness of Berklee Positions and traditional position playing, but as people are probably a little bored of hearing me say, “CAGED” is of little use to me on my path. Neither strict 3nps nor CAGED allow me to do what I do.
It all comes down to managing complexity, and thinking in intervallic patterns within the chromatic scale has proven most practical for me after 42 years playing/wrestling with guitar mysteries.
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Check out FRETBOARD FREEDOM by Claus Levin. Great concept that makes my students get going in few lessons (with dedicated practicing😉)
This is not sponsored and really convinced me!
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