The truth may be somewhere in the middle, maybe some motions are just trickier to find. Wrist only DBX like Andy Wood blows my mind because as soon as you hit the string with an upstroke you stop flexion - and that creates a huge probability of starting to extend again thus doing stringhopping. Even with the tiniest amount of extension on the upstroke your movement will be inefficent. That is super tricky in my opinion. Wrist-forearm doesn’t have that because you keep flexing and rotating and you can’t flex and extend at the same time.
I was into sprinting for quite awhile before and one of the biggest factors even over technique was how much force you could put into the ground vertically in the shortest amount of time. And this was based on the amount of fast twitch muscles you had over slow twitch. Something you can’t really train for and was genetically gifted, certain drugs could help out mind.
I think many of us will have these same genetic differences all throughout the body. So some of us will be able to achieve a fast and small motion in order to get a certain technique working at speed, whereas others will be unable to. And will have to find a different technique that works better at speed for them. That’s my perspective anyway.
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I believe they are, the same way that any movement in athletics or dance is attainable with skill and training. Olympic level performance perhaps requires some inherent potential amplified through training, but anyone can be trained in the fundamental movements of a sport.
On the guitar, some movements feel more natural for some players based on their setup, but the fundamental movements of right hand technique are much simpler than left hand technique. That makes them easier to break down into movements that can be trained. There are really only a few factors at play:
- Pick Direction
- Pick Angle
- Trap/Escape
- Rotation
If you can learn the different combinations of these, then you’ll have the basic patterns that create all the different movements in the Pickslanting Primer for example.
In different combinations the factors create techniques like:
- DPS / USX Alternate Picking on 1 String
- UPS / DSX Alternate Picking on 1 String
- Double Escape [DBX] Alternate Picking on 2 Strings [Rotation]
- Double Escape [DBX] Alternate Picking on All Strings [Rotation]
- DPS Sweeping + Economy
- UPS Sweeping + Economy
- 2WPS Sweeping + Economy
Is it necessary to master all these to play the guitar? I don’t really believe it. Legendary players like Jimmy Page and Hendrix only had one real motion in lead lines: Downward pick slant alternate picking (and a lot of legato). Even a great virtuoso like Yngwie only uses the same primary motion. Most players gravitate towards what feels natural, and seek to master that technique.
The focus purely on picking also ignores the important art of legato, that I will argue is more important. The pick can only move as fast as the left hand can move. Legato perfects the fret hand coordination, accuracy and speed. If your legato isn’t smooth, the right hand sync is never going to be as tight. Except, I guess, in tremolo picking.
Only a few players like Gambale, Michael Romeo, Marshall Harrison, Tosin Abasi have really mastered all these techniques (and many more).
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This will seem pretty elementary to some, but it’s the kind of thing I’ve got to ask, as I’m still getting my head around some of the concepts here…
I’ll choose a fingerstyle piece or a strummy rhythm song to learn purely based on whether I like it; unless there’s some pretty unusual technique thing going on (which usually there’s not), I’ll be fine. But it sounds to me that when it comes to playing other people’s lead stuff (i.e. “covers,” not your own improv), you’ve got to first decide whether your motion will even allow for it.
Am I right? Is that what guys are doing when it comes to picking a new EVH or SRV (or whoever) song to learn…?
I think you shouldn’t overthink things, you can just try to translate the content to the movements you have, use some pullofs, start on an upstroke instead of down, etc. As a teenager I’ve played lots of Yngwie, Marty Friedman and some EJ while being DSX and not knowing that I’m doing their stuff upside down.
So I am… wrong;) Great - seriously, that’s good to know. What you’re saying makes perfect sense, but I had to hear someone say it to get it. Thx.
Interesting topic, but Troy seems to have quite a collection of picking motions/techniques to his arsenal. That tells me that it’s definitely possible to develop different motions. And yes, I (for one) totally agree that physiology will have an impact on what is going to come more naturally in regards to picking motions. I guess we can A) Do what comes naturally and “works” and take that to extremes - and find a “workaround” to solve the lines that don’t work. or B) get to work and really try and figure out what makes these motions tick - Lots of subtleties in every motion, so I guess it is what it is. Regardless, it’s going to take some effort either way to get the sounds we want to hear.
Quite a coincidence. I’m a sprinter too and been doing it for years (I just train myself these days). The research (particularly from Charlie Francis) that I came across convinced me that the whole fast/slow twitch muscle is a lot more complex and greatly oversimplified to the point that that’s all people think about for speed. Power lifters have insane amounts of FT muscles but are slow as hell.
There are many factors, but one of the hardest to train is something called the rate of impulse or, how much force you can apply within an extremely limited time frame. Still, there are ways to train it. Through proper training, a sprinter can probably beat 95% of people. Genetics comes into play at the elite levels. Just my opinion.
Back to guitar, I’m still going through the Primer (it’s a hell of a lot of material and I’m studying it).
My plan is to spend some time with each technique (arm, wrist, forearm etc.) and experiment with different pick strokes etc. after about a month or two, I’ll stop practicing with one the techniques I feel least comfortable with and continue. Hopefully, I’ll end up with one technique that I can focus on and master.
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Good luck! Just keep in mind that guitar is about coordination, not so much about strength. It’s not like your muscles get bigger and then you start playing faster. If you are an adult dude, you have all the gear required to play fast. It’s the matter of finding the right motion so don’t waste too much time practicing something that doesn’t feel like it’s going to get better. As I said before, give a try to all that CtC offers and stick to the first thing that feels comfortable and effortless.
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It’s not exactly a direct answer to the question, but @Troy and I noticed the following recurring issue in technique critiques (and this is something I also noticed in my own practice):
While learning new motions, people have a hard time trying to play fast and sloppy. As far as we know, this is the most effective way to discover things that work, and it’s the way Troy developed his numerous techniques. A lot of people, however, seem to struggle to go beyond the “slow and fully controlled” phase.
I’m not sure what is the reason behind this difficulty - is it a thing that comes with age (most of us here are well past our teens), where we became more cautious in our movements, and we don’t want to lose the feeling of control? Is it a mostly psychological thing due to years of “old school guitar advice to start slow”? Would be interesting to know.
If I may go for a slightly cheesy but related anecdote, my 2yold daughter recently learned how to jump, and it was interesting to watch. She didn’t start with a very slow and controlled movement (like a slow squat or something). She just tried to jump with one fast movement! At first her coordination between upper and lower body was completely off, so her feet wouldn’t actually leave the floor - was pretty hilarious to watch. But then she slowly started getting it, coordination improved, and now we can probably legally say that she can jump 
But the speed of her movements never really changed.
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If you’re into sprinting check out “bearpowered” forum if you’ve not already. Really great info on there for sprinting. Almost like cracking the code for sprinters.
I think there are a lot of parallels that can be applied to fast picking.
My short answer is I have no evidence for this at all. If you couldn’t make the joint motions that are used in most picking motions, you would have trouble in lots of everday activities. As far as I know, people who can’t do certain motions just don’t know how.
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The problem i have found especially with USX is not getting the motion, but getting the fast twitchy reflex in that motion. I can get it with DSX, but the others still evade me.
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It’s the same issue I have with the evh tremolo. I can do the motion, but up to his speed? No way. My wrist does not rotate back n forth fast enough. He had very different hands/forearms etc than me.
USX isn’t a joint motion, it’s just a way of describing any motion where the pick goes up in the air on the upstrokes. And that depends on a lot of variables. Just as an example, if you use wrist joint motion, Eddie Van Halen’s USX wrist motion is the same wrist motion as Andy Wood’s DSX wrist motion, just with a different arm position and pick grip. Same joint motion, the “two o’clock” wrist motion. If you can do one, you can do the other. David Grier’s DSX wrist motion is the same wrist motion as Mike Stern’s USX wrist motion — nine o’clock to three o’clock, or wrist deviation, just with a different arm position, but a similar pick grip.
There is nothing specific to “USX” that makes it harder for some people to do than others, becausae so many different joints could create that. If you want to look at specific joints, ok, maybe your wrist works differently than someone else’s. But that’s a big maybe, and I have no evidence of that. Maybe your forearm works differently than someone else’s. Also a big maybe. At some point, you end up ruling out so many types of motion that lots of everyday activities, many of which are speedy, become not possible, and this would be obvious if it were really true on any kind of large scale.
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Fast enough for what? I can’t play EVH speeds either, the guy could hit 220bpm sixteenths on his forearm motion for what seemed like all day. I’m just guessing here, but I would think that anyone who is examined by a physical therapist or orhopedic surgeon and turns up with what they would consider normal function range of motion in the forearm joint, would probably be able to move at least fast enough for 150bpm sixteenth notes, if not more. Maybe that’s not fast enough to do death metal tremolo. But Molly Tuttle’s White Freightliner is “only” about 145bpm and most people find that pretty intimidating. If you could do fluid bebop or country at that tempo you’d be considered a pretty great picker too.
Differences in forearm joint function or capability are really just not something I have any evidence for. They may exist, and I’m open minded to finding that out. But short of large-scale testing in a rigorous kind of way, I don’t know if we’ll ever know the answer to that.
If any joints vary in a way that would affect picking technique, I would guess it’s finger joints. This is just a guess though, again I have no hard evidence. But when it comes to the “big three” joints of elbow, forearm, and wrist, my guess is there is less variation just because of how central they are to so mamy everyday human activities.
Wouldn’t it be correct to say that the speed and repetitive, also accuracy of picking, really isn’t in any everyday activity? I can’t think of any occasion where my wrist has the type of demands playing guitar imposes.
Fast enough and strong enough to overcome the hands inertia in a specific picking motion.
I agree all styles are possible. But I do think some picking motions are just inefficient for some peoples hand construction.
Taking the sprinting analogy, sure you can train for it and increase speed, but some people will be able to go faster than you no matter how much you train. Some peoples bodies are just better suited for rapid motion. Better joint leavers, faster nervous system and muscle fiber recruitment etc…
I am just talking about high speeds, not saying picking motions are not achievable. Tho there are bound to be different efficient motions for different hand types.
The running analogy is one I think about a lot because I ran track in High School, three seasons a year, so these are differences I’m very familiar with. The difference between good sprinters on my team and average sprinters would be similar in guitar to the difference between someone who can alternate pick 200bpm sixteenths and someone who can alternate pick 220bpm sixteenths with the same exact joint motion. Sizable, meaningful in a race, but less noticeable to regular people. To an observer, all these people would all look like very fast runners. I myself am more of a distance runner but I still look “fast” in a sprint to regular people, even though I’d get killed in an actual sprint competition.
The differences in guitar motions look similar to me. A wide variety of players we’ve reviewed right here on the forum in Technique Critique can alternate pick in the 170-190 range of bpm for sixteenth notes with at least one joint motion. Very fast players might be able to go over 200bpm with the same motion. But to an average listener, all of these are very fast speeds. If you can handle jazz or bluegrass lines with any complexity at 150-170 bpm, you will sound like a god to the average listener.
At the end of the day, most really fast picking motions are simple. They can only play single-string phrases, or single-escape phrases / patterns. So the most athletically gifted straight-line speed players very often can’t play those complicated mid 100s phrases, because they don’t know how. A technically “slower” player who does not have Usain bolt levels of straight line speed might give up 20 or 30bpm to a faster player, but you might never know it in many everyday musical situations, because those mid 100s picking speeds are where so much music lives.
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I agree most is not about speed, but it’s the basic concept.
Those elite sprinters will have an easier time, and therefor be able to be more expressive at a slower speed, because their bodies are built well for the particular motions they are doing. It’s more efficient for them.
Eddies tapping is a good example, the Spanish fly tapping can be exhausting if you don’t have the right hands for it. Some peoples joints and muscle leavers can just work better in certain actions than others. So while the motions are all possible, everyone will all have a picking motion that just works better for them. No matter the speed. I personally find the gypsy jazz style just works far better for me than an alternate picking style. It’s far more relaxed for me, I have more control and can ramp up the speed if needed. And I don’t believe it’s from lack of practice. My joints and muscles just fit that style better.