As far as pure physical ability, he played Get Out of My Yard without a capo when he was 13 and it’s pretty ridiculous
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I can’t help but wonder if to some degree, this maturation establishes a dogmatic view of technique. Perhaps some tremendous innovations in technique relating to some of those instruments are possible.
Specifically, I’ve been told by classical players that much of what is taught as “correct” is based on Segovia, his methods and his teaching. To contradict Segovia and the doctrine of classical guitar technique would be akin to heresy.
However, Segovia lived into the late 1980s and his supposed doctrine is less than a century old. Could the instrument have come further if other modern virtuousi had less expectation to conform to Segovia’s doctrine?
I’m not a classical player or any kind of expert on the history of classical guitar, so I might be off base here. I’m just reflecting on what I’ve heard from a few classical players I’ve had discussions with.
Edit: Any thoughts @joebegly ?
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For those who are interested in some deep analyzing of the late great Allan Holdsworth this vid realy is a must! It will give you a much better understanding of how he approached things harmonically, which often is much simpeler then you would expect.
John Vullo put a loooot of effort in this!
Me and two other guys helped out with transcribing and correcting.
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Hi @Andjoy, that really is a fantastic video. I had been considering making a thread to share it.
I also feel that Timmothy Pedone’s recent book is very worth reading.
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Honestly thinking about it more, Brandon Ellis does perfectly fit all 3 of the points OP wanted, this improv take from him sounds like Vai meets Jason Becker. He’s a perfect example of someone who’s studied 80’s guitarists, combined a ton of their techniques and sounds, and applied them to newer extreme metal contexts
EDIT: (Okay lol, maybe not innovative as Eddie Van Halen that’s a very high bar now that electric guitar playing is way more mature than when Eddie started, but points a) and c) easily )
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I have to admit I didn’t study the history of technique in depth and just did what I was told. I had no reason to not trust or question my teacher since he was a top professor at a prestigious conservatory and was a former student of Aaron Shearer.
We all kicked some ideas and findings around here:
One thing I can say is that broadly, most very well trained classical players have pretty similar techniques. So whether it is Segovia’s or even more recently Aaron Shearer’s technical methodology, what we have today is pretty standardized. But yes, it comes with some Dogma.
Variations I can note are different players prefer different nail shapes. And since tone production is such a core part of the technique, there are only so many approach angles and contact points that “work” based on the options of nail shapes. It seems more finite than what we see in electric guitar where 2 players with excellent technique like Shawn Lane and Rusty Cooley look so different (and even have drastically different implications of what they can and cannot comfortably play).
One thing I do know about Segovia’s influence that dicatates technique is the repertoire he standardized. It was so heavily reliant upon “solo” classical guitar. Again I think because the pieces most players learn are so specific even down to fingerings that just aren’t negotiable, there isn’t a lot of room for variation. If guitar is played in a duo, trio or quartet the polyphonic responsibility is suddenly dropped and then suddenly we have more options in both hands for variation of technique. The Great John Williams (Segovia’s student, not the film score composer, though he is great too) talked about this in a documentary and questioned if this did more harm than good in ways. He popularized the instrument and gave it a place in concer halls and conservatories, but at a cost.
I sort of agree. Even from a composition standpoint it is REALLY difficult to write high quality solo classical guitar music that is also playable by anyone but the most skilled players. Even plenty of the standard pieces that were written for other instruments and transcribed for guitar (Bach, Scarlatti or Albeniz etc) are unfortunately just shells of the original compositions. Voice leadings are compromised, bass lines are illogical or incomplete and some notes are just missing because there is just no way to play it on a guitar (solo guitar). Some nice pieces written by “Guitarist” composers (Tarrega for example) have plenty of the voice leading issues mentioned above. Barrios is the outlier. His compositions are high quality with excellent voice leading, interesting chromatic harmony and great musical form…but his pieces are damned difficult to play.
Sorry for the longwided answer but under that lens, I’d say even though mature and pretty standardized, classical guitar still has room for growth and improvement.
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I would be very interested in that thread, I haven’t avidly listened to Holdsworth in a while, but in late highschool I was fascinated with him, and spent a ton of time trying to get down Road Games and Three Sheets to the Wind from scans of Japanese transcriptions my guitar teacher had at the time.
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Ouch I am not near a guitar but I don’t think my ring finger would like to invert that way
Edit: lol sorry that was supposed to be in a DM to @bradejensen. My phone changed threads on me
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This has been my impression also. I don’t play classical guitar (and likely never will), I’m certainly no authority upon it. However, I do think that I have a keen eye for subtle technical details and a knowledge base on the subject of hand and finger movements which I believe must be largely transferable.
From what I’ve seen, there is a level of uniformity in technical methodology among the great classical players. That technical methodology is clearly very capable and you know I have nothing but respect for classical players.
I can’t help but think that a dogmatic view of technical methodology would limit what is considered feasible or idiomatic to the guitar.
This, is it precisely. One the electric guitar, so many different technical methodologies have been demonstrated to be tremendously capable, though what is naturally amenable to being played with these different methodologies differ drastically.
It would be interesting to see what could be accomplished with a different approach to technical methodology on the classical guitar.
I wonder if this established repertoire creates a circular logic with the established methodology. That is, the established methods are considered correct because they best fit the requirements of the repertoire, but the repertoire can only consist of things that can be played with the established methodology.
I have read that before Segovia, the classical guitar was considered a lesser or inferior instrument among the classical establishment.
In truth I’m not the greatest fan of much of the classical repertoire for precisely this reason. I simply prefer to listen to the pieces on the instruments they were composed for (or their nearest modern relatives).
As much as I appreciate the Spanish tradition and it’s importance in the history of the guitar, most of the Spanish compositions which were specifically for the guitar don’t much appeal to me. This puts me in the odd position of loving the timbre of the classical guitar, but not enjoying much of the music that is actually played on it. I do enjoy Barrios though, beautiful music.
Flamenco doesn’t much appeal to me either, though I respect the tradition immensely.
I wonder if what’s necessary is a new wave of composer guitarists who are familiar with the established methodology, but who are willing to take the instrument into new directions. As an odd thought, Michael Hedges studied classical guitar and composition at the Peabody Conservatory. He went on the revolutionize steel-string acoustic guitar playing, but what could have happened if he’d focused on pursuing his music on the classical guitar?
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so can we bring in the classical guys!
i just want to live inside this guys songs it sounds like heaven!
sounds so clean and heavenly yet so raw and pure with so much powerful passion, sheesh!
this was under the details of the video
Sarará is a composition I’ve done many years ago.
I play it almost every concert.
It represents the freedom of the frontier musicality, it also reminds me of my childhood.
The dream of having a horse!
When I was a kid, it became this theme song.
More and more my compositions try to be photographs of different cultures, in this case, the language of chamamé, music with a Guarani influence.
Long live the music that transports us simply by closing our eyes!! Blessed music!!
what an artist!
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The most impressive classical guitarist I’ve ever heard is Yamashita - specifically his take on Pictures At An Exhibition. It’s worth noting that a lot of the more traditionalist classical guitarists hated his work at the time and criticised his tone, among other things, but goddamn is what he did in that arrangement absolutely insane.
I think the world has shifted away from solo guitar, and thats the reason why it seems 70’s 80’s guitarists are more prominent than todays. Today guitarists are either doing super fast shredding or doing fancy stuff that you wouldn’t associate with guitar.
For a guitar, or any instrument to shine you need the backing to support it, and modern music isn’t constructed around the guitar.
Here is a guy who I believe in the 80’s would of been a big name.
He’s got it all, the look, the skill the drive, the flair. But look at his current subs, only 8K
I think guitar is just not appreciated today as it once was. I have my own ideas why, but they come across as offensive lol
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Funny enough, the lyrics on this song, “look at all these little kids, takin care of the music biz”
This is an important point - most musicians I like aren’t guitarists - and they use DAWs, know how to produce music and keep up with cutting edge production techniques.
If you’re concerned with innovation and composition primarily, guitar isn’t exactly the primary place to look. There’s never been any distinct reason it should be chosen over more linear instruments like keys, aside from getting some very particular sounds that guitar lends itself to. In fact, it’s the opposite case. It is not ideal for composition in a general sense relative to keys.
I play guitar because I love the instrument and I love pushing my limits with it, but I write just as often with a DAW and a keyboard or just a piano roll. I’m very interested in learning production techniques and talk to friends and relatives who’ve gone and gotten a degree in sound engineering or do it for fun/as a serious hobby they want to grow. The songwriters I respect the most from all decades are not typically guitar virtuosos, although some stand out in both departments like maybe Zappa (although he wasn’t exactly a virtuoso).
If I think of innovative producers and songwriters, I’m more likely to think of Sufjan Stevens or SOPHIE or Kendrick Lamar - than Joe Satriani
I want to write music that features guitar, because I love the instrument, but I don’t necessarily want to write or listen to strictly guitar centric music.
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on all of this. Most of the music that makes me go “oh, that’s cool” these days isn’t guitar music. And that’s fine. If I had my dream gig, I’d be Nuno Bettencourt touring with Rihanna (or Jennifer Batten with Michael Jackson), not Eddie Van Halen.
And I’m really regretting not paying better attention to piano lessons when I was younger 
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Modern guitar players are totally different, it feels like more gimmicks are used such as what Tim Henson does for example.
The 80s guitar heros had insane chops along with melody and composition skills. So someone like Jason Becker there has been no equal to as he could actually compose some pretty epic stuff.
I mean when was the last amazing solo that everyone wanted to learn? I can’t honestly think of one. There’s a reason most people are still trying to play cliffs of Dover, Becker, Yngwie etc.
I’m curious if anyone else here really enjoys or has checked out Christian Meunzner’s solo work? I think as far as cool neoclassical compositions go it’s flown very far under the radar.
How about this Obscura piece - you’d be extremely hard pressed to find anything from Malmsteen that’s compositionally and mechanically as complex as this (if you’re unsure, skip to 3:30)
Dean Lamb is on video learning the intro portion of Blitzkrieg by Malmsteen in the course of an hour, and I think his compositions are pretty great. Here’s him casually talking on a livestream while playing
The last song I wanted to learn was probably this Black Dahlia song
How about Dave Davidson?
If nothing else, the overall waterline is vastly higher for guitarists on average - maybe there aren’t as many incredible outliers (debatable) but I’d put down money that there are vastly more players now that can physically play like Malmsteen than there were in the 80’s. As far as composition - I mean if you think the above examples aren’t as compositionally good as many Malmsteen songs I’d just agree to disagree.
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Maybe so. One funny ironic point though:
The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear the words “guitar” and “gimmick” in the same sentence is…tapping lol! I’m not knocking EVH, because what he did with it was innovative. But it sure did become a gimmick, and that was manifested in the 80’s.
This might be true. Definitely is probably true. I wonder if it’s just that it’s more visible now though? We have all the social media platforms and youtube. So there’s more opportunity for people to put their stuff out there. Back in the 80’s if you weren’t on a major label or some hired gun with an instructional video, we’d never know they existed. But suddenly, here’s a guy who’s neither of those things, but “here he is!” lol! We can see how awesome he is
How many great players were there in the 80’s that we never heard of?
I take your point though @cmcgee11235 and I do think as far as recording artists go, there are more mechanically capable monsters around now, than ever 
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He was arguably able to play like Jason Becker at 17 - not sure his composition skills were at that level
Also I’m not sure but his cover of this Dying Soul at 15 might be cleaner than at 28
