Are we over-focussing on moving the pick fast?

So, this isn’t really the person we’re talking about. This is an ideal situation, where the person obviously has a very specific issue, in fact fortuitously the exact issue the curriculum is geared towards, is conscious that it resides in the picking hand, but is experienced enough that they have decent synchronization, and the general motor skills to pull it off - the other challenges involved are fairly ironed out. To get the most out of it, there’s an experience level that kind of already has to be in place, and a very specific issue to address. What I’ve noticed though lately, is really a divergence from this, and a general lack of the development necessary to get the absolute most out of it.

Now if I were to critique a little on the current ideas and form: I believe @joebegly were discussing this in another thread. The focus seems to be more on the joints and appendage movements as a pure visual reference, and maybe not so much on the particular muscles needed to make those movements happen the way they are described. To elaborate a little more, while you hear often that shredding shouldn’t be tense, playing guitar in general isn’t tension free. Muscles have to move and operate to make these movements possible, and maybe a bit of focus on what exactly these motions should feel like and the particular muscles involved that activate. I think we used a weight lifting analogy in the discussion. Someone can give you a barbell and tell you to move your elbow joint but with out knowing where you should feel that pump, or what muscle your expected to work, your kind of just guessing and hoping for the best. Someone on the other hand gives you a dumbell, tells you to move it towards your chest while utilizing a good form, and that you should feel the tension in the long head of the bicep, well now you have a clearer picture of what to look for.

The total beginner is rare here, but there have been a few. And I don’t think the curriculum is really geared towards them. In my opinion, theres a certain threshold of development that really needs to happen before you should even worry about some of this stuff. If your goal from the start is “yeah I wanna shred” than by all means at least play with the picking hand thing so you don’t have to back track later, but from there the focus should really be on developing your rhythm chops, playing songs, and coordination. I’ve seen more people recently in the in between category, who don’t quite have the sync there yet for some of the lessons to be the most useful. They have found how they pick the fastest, but now don’t know how to really apply it, or realize they don’t really have the coordination down to really do much with it or utilize it. I feel like I’ve had to break the news to a few here that now comes the hard part, and that there’s no getting out of that 10,000hrs to mastery, and that “yeah, you unfortunately really have to do all that tedious boring stuff everyone else from the dawn of guitar playing time has told you to do”

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Almost all the stuff I’m interested in playing is 200+, so I need to be able tackle those speeds one day.

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Starting with speed was one of the things that I avoided the most, always in favor of the classical “start slow and built up from there”.

Slow is good for playing slow but in order to acquire (as one acquire a language) fast mechanics, it’s necessary to practice fast movements.

Moving the pick fast is something I’d not have tried if it wasn’t for the lessons in the primer and the amazing comuntiy always guiding me.

Thanks a lot you, guys!

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I look at CtC as three tiers.

Tier 0 is worthy of the Nobel Prize in Music (if there was one), as this is the theory of picking (escapes, etc.) coupled with experimental proof (via Magnets), all wrapped up in one flawless package. The significance of this work cannot be overstated. This is even free!

Tier 1 is heuristic suggestions about how to enhance picking speed, as well as a massive body of practice material. This content is remarkable, and geared to a huge range of students of all skill levels; it is what will reach the masses and further spread picking excellence.

Tier 2 is about music theory, improvisation, and other typical stuff that is similar to other web sites, so I typically ignore it.

I believe that guitar technique is now mature, and CtC put in the final missing piece. There is no place that I am aware of that has all of the pieces clearly described, but CtC has the plectrum covered to perfection. If only more things were this awesome.

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How useful is picking speed if your fretting hand isn’t developed enough to take advantage of it, or your not developed enough to use it. That to me is the point of this thread.

The left hand steers, the right hand presses on the gas, and if you can’t steer, you shouldn’t press on the gas

-Paul Gilbert

Other technical aspects are more obvious. You put in the effort - you get results. Picking technique on the onther hand is kind of a mystery, at least it was before CTC.

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People come here for help with their picking hand, not to be told they are not ready to develop their picking. You can develop both hands at the same time.

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It is EXTREMELY USEFUL to remove the most significant barrier to speed (picking)! This way, there is one less thing to work on, and the ultimate problem (playing quickly overall) comes much closer to its ultimate resolution.

Now I want to see conservatories step up and teach ALL of guitar. :grinning:

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But you cannot get out of doing that, and sometimes the picking hand isn’t the biggest problem, in some cases it’s even a systemic one! The picking hand is only a part of the equation. Nobody said you can not develop both, but it should be emphasized that it IS a requirement. It takes a lot of work to develop all the pieces necessary to do it effectively, and for the beginner, the understanding that the picking hand is only one piece of the bigger puzzle, and the focus needs to be broadened sometimes has to be stated.

So yeah, if I see someone on here posting a video with a left hand that looks incapable of following the right, I’m going to recommend that be an area of focus.

This is where I will respectfully disagree, and say it’s only the most significant to some and not objectively the most significant barrier.

On this I’m not sure I have an opinion. That sounds like an interesting poll or study though.

I do think that given Troy’s marketing and mission, the site mostly attracts people struggling with picking. That is not to say they don’t have other issues too. I often suggest to people on critique threads that whatever phrases they are struggling with should be something that they can play entirely with a “light” all-hammers articulation at the desired speed (no pulloffs since that is a different technique and wouldn’t be used if they pick everything). If they can’t, then they have a fretting hand problem. If they can, but they can’t move their pick fast enough, they have a motion problem or are getting tripped up by an incorrect escape understanding.

From there it gets more nuanced and I think this is one of your points @Fossegrim (please correct me if I’m wrong) - it is entirely possible to have a great tremolo and sound fretting hand technique but something drastically change when combining the 2. I think of it like trying to comb my hair with one hand and brush my teeth with the other at the same time. The act of the combination results in an uncoordinated mess even if I can do them just fine on their own. I’d like to see more CtC case studies on that myself (not the personal hygiene thing, the combining left/right hands with guitar playing :slight_smile: ) . We hear the suggestion of doing licks on one string and progression to crossing strings but maybe there is more to the hand sync (on every note, not just the first note of the pattern) for some players. Troy mentioned on his journey and discovery of applying “chunking” that if he aligned his pick on the first note of the pattern he was good to go. Maybe it’s not that straightforward for everyone.

Even if people can line up the “landmark” note…there’s a lot that can happen in between where things drift. I’ve read (in some thread here) Troy acknowledge this as a thing people may struggle with and it may even be on the roadmap of some new material.

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@joebegly I couldn’t have said better myself!

My other gripe is maybe a little more focus on what it takes (muscle activation) to get some of these movements to work effectively. Adam kind of summed it up pretty well at the bottom of the thread below:

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Excellent!

So broadly speaking, “issue” #1 is that there needs to be more focus on overall left/right hand coordination of each note.

What are you’re thoughts on how to improve that? Would it be a combination of playing slow and fast? Too slow, the motion(s) can change so much that it’s not efficient and will hit a wall if someone attempts to keep using it at faster speeds. Too fast and it could be slop fest that’s not useful. Maybe the “Goldilocks” thing? There’s some speed that’s “just right”? That’s likely different from player to player, but being able to identify when you find it could be helpful.

And this is all just thinking out loud. I’m actually in a situation where I’m working on some Eric Johnson licks and there are days where I can hang with the recordings at 100% the tempo. It’s not 100% clean 100% of the time though. I’ve noticed if I take that tempo down to 80 - 95% that my success rate goes up dramatically. I think that is still above speeds where I could accidentally revert to inefficient movements but who knows. I’ve been wrong about that before lol! Will lots of time in this 80 - 95% region eventually get me to the full speed, clean and controlled most of the time? Or would a better way be to always play at 100% of the tempo, but shorten the phrases so that I’m focusing on chunks of 6 - 12 notes? Pretty sure I could handle that 100% of the tempo, 100% clean, 98% of the time :slight_smile: Maybe then doing some forward chaining and gradually adding notes.

Hopefully that’s not a tangent and is part of what you’re after for site improvement :slight_smile:

…and this can often change pretty quickly - I’ve gone from primarily leaning on legato technique because my picking was just not that great, to now feeling like a lot of my coordination issues are fretting hand related because I’ve rather quickly (at least, relatively speaking) gotten my picking to the point where it’s no longer really the limiting factor for a lot of playing situations, and the fact that my legato playing has never been “forced” to be meter perfect to align with a picking attack is now causing a lot of problems. I’d still say that the picking hand was the primary limiting factor for me, but now that i’ve broken through that barrier, I’ve got some other problems to solve, which require a somewhat different approach.

Good problems to have though, right?

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Joe, honestly I think some of it is on a case by case basis. Now I get that this is the product Troy and Co. are trying to sell, but when you see some of the posts where clearly there are other issues present but they are kind of being ignored or they are brushed aside because they don’t adhere to the niche, or aren’t exactly what the poster asked for, or wants to hear for that matter, it’s a little frustrating because I’m not entirely sure what it really serves or what the true benefit is overall in these cases .

One analogy I can make for it, and I hope it translates LoL! Say a person goes to his general practitioner complaining about Impotence (inability to play fast), and wants the doctor to prescribe some viagra, and the doctor knowing that causation is pretty wide orders tests (video), and the doctor notices severely elevated blood sugar along with a lack of functioning beta cells. He then tells the patient the issue, and instead of the viagra, he is going to prescribe insulin. Now, the patient can either accept this diagnosis, or he can get mad at the doctor because it wasn’t the viagra he asked for.

This isn’t really my biggest gripe here really, it’s just something that I’ve notice happen.

Now with what the forum does do very well, and kind of my biggest gripe with the material, well you already know what I think can be improved, or at least attempted. To me these things are a bit more complex than what is always visually obvious, and a lot of times a camera right up against your picking hand isn’t going to reveal some of this. At times I think that it may lead to frustration as to why something may not be working for an individual, and the response is usually that it wasn’t right for the person and to try something else. Sometimes that is the case, and it truly it’s individual physiology, other times it may very well be something that’s not visually obvious, and can be overcome with the right insight. But I don’t think I don’t really think I need to mention this again, I’ve kind of mentioned a lot this last couple of weeks so I’m sure your sick of reading it Joe. :grinning:

I would say, and unfortunately one of the more boring problems to tackle

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Ha! Yes that translates. Funny, too :slight_smile: We need a ‘diet alternative’ analogy too. Doctor says to eat fewer carbs, or at the lower glycemic type that don’t spike the blood sugar as rapidly. I can’t think of how to map that to a guitar thing though lol Maybe, try playing everything on a nylon string classical??? (More natural) lol!

Well, I keep responding to your posts and trying to keep the conversation going, so I can’t very well claim I’m getting sick of it lol!

I’ve said to you on here before, I think it’s great to be able to talk things out with people who have different opinions or experiences and try to find some common ground and walk away with some new knowledge. I appreciate you voicing a different take on this, especially when you know a lot of us think about it differently. I definitely see your point that not every problem can be addressed by getting a fast tremolo. That will solve a problem but may not be exactly what that player needs because there are other issues. And yes, this is a case by case basis.

I guess the question is, how do we make this better? Should there be more criteria or prerequisites in critiques? Like, the ability to play certain patterns at certain speeds with decent hand sync? If a player can’t do “X” yet, why waste their (and our) time getting them to develop a fast tremolo if they’re years away from being able to put that tremolo to good use? Can we be better doctors and not always prescribe Viagra? :slight_smile:

Maybe a more blunt question is, does the site help beginners as often as it helps the ‘almost- shredders’ that just need that little push? I could still see it having a good deal of benefit for less experienced players. I mean, I wish I knew about this stuff back when I’d started learning and doing things by intuition (which weren’t great for me since I’m not intuitive). It would have saved me time and I would have advanced more quickly.

And good god I type too much, I’d better stop, but @Fossegrim am I in the ballpark with the above 2 paragraphs (re: less experienced players being where the critiques are missing the mark)? Or are you even saying for more experienced players you think the critiques aren’t always providing the recipe for growth people are needing?

And thanks again for talking all this out. Obviously this ain’t my site so it doesn’t matter what I think, but I think we’re getting somewhere with the conversation :slight_smile:

The iterative problem-solving approach, where as you solve one problem it exposes a second problem that was sliding under the radar simply because it was not big enough to be readily detectable before that first problem was solved? Eh, idunno… I mean, it’s a good problem because every time you knock one of these down and uncover another one, it’s uncovering another problem because you’re making clear progress. If I could have heard myself today, at 16, I would have blown my own goddamn mind, and whenever I’m feeling a little frustrated about a coordination issue or something I just remind myself of that. And, at the end of the day, picking up a guitar is one of the single most fun, inspiring things I do on any given day. Even drilling fairly rote fundamentals is still, bigger picture, pretty fun.

Unless you mean smoothing out legato, of course, and even then that’s just the final point above there - it’s easy enough to tell what you need to be able to do, even out the timing so from a rhythmic standpoint string changes are undetectable (even if there are slight tonal differences on that first picked note vs the subsequent ones and from string to string), so it’s just a matter of, well, doing that. Which beats my day job, ten times out of ten.

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Pretty much. Although one thing: If my 16 year old self heard me play today, he would write me off because there is no tapping or whammy bar.

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My 16 year old self was big into blues and thought he knew everything, the technique would have blown his mind, as probably would have the tone, but I can’t say for sure what he would have thought of the music. :laughing: On some level that was probably a defense mechanism though and truth be told, I think any random fast run wouldn’t have really moved the needle one way or the other, but if I could go back in time and play myself a full song I’d write a couple decades down the road, I think my taste hasn’t shifted SO far (and in many ways my writing is drifting a little bit more back to my roots) that I probably would have wanted to hear more, as a kid.

There are a couple of things I really wished I would have developed earlier, or at least had a concept of like note division and timing. I didn’t start working on things like that until I was in my 20’s. Before that it was all instinctual, because I didn’t know there was anything else.

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Did someone claim that the concepts here are a silver bullet or short cut for every individual’s struggle with guitar mastery?

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