Can You Improve Past Your Table Tapping Speeds?

I’ve dived back into working a bit on my wrist-forearm blend motion and my picking speed tends to fluctuate between 202.5bpm-210bpm 16th notes. 210bpm is actually what I scored on my table tapping tests for both wrist and forearm individually, do you think there is anyway to improve past this? :grinning:

It also feels like the left hand becomes more of a limiting factor at these speeds as it’s tough to even play legato licks this fast.

Is this sort of speed more genetic, or do you think slight alterations to form (or trying something completely new) could achieve this? (My form isn’t too dissimilar from Igor, though his looks a little more wrist-y)

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I’d love to know the answer to all this too. I’d actually had a brief chat with Troy about that (amazing) Igor clip in another thread.

Troy only had a hunch on if genetics played a role. His suspicion was if it existed, it was probably less of a factor than most people think. My takeaway from his response is that we need more data. I know @Tom_Gilroy has some strong (but well founded) opinions on the “freak” aspect of elite players. One thing is for certain, if the furthest we go is stand back in awe and think we’ll never get there…we’ll never get there.

As someone with a strong work ethic that has wasted 100’s of hours on practicing conventional ways that don’t work…I’d love to at least know if there is a happy path to getting faster than an already acceptable fast speed. Maybe it’s as simple as just trying to play faster than you can already play. It will be bad at first but maybe the nervous system adapts over time.

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You have to be careful when you say things like “improve”. How do you know that whatever you are doing on your table tap tests is as fast as you can do them?

You can’t assume that just because tapping on a table appears like a simple activity, you’re automatically doing it right. We frequently request actual video of the tests themselves, and I’ve seen some pretty wide variation in how people actually perform these seemingly simple requests. If the numbers are fast enough to play what the player wants, then I don’t worry about how they did the tests. But if the player posts test results that are low relative to what they’re trying to do, I like to see actual video of the tests themselves to see what motion they’re actually making. This has been very helpful.

Second, the table tap tests aren’t all motions, just a few that we use as benchmarks. They’re easy enough that most people can do them pretty fast. But there’s no reason to assume that these tests represent the complete range of motions a person can do on a guitar. As an example, John Taylor’s “dart thrower” wrist motion technique is not really represented on the tests, and I’ve been able to do this one upwards of 260bpm on actual guitar. Not only is this faster than any of my table tap tests, but it also feels easier when I get it going:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXO0EvulLnt/

I’ve had some TC players also stumble across this motion through pure experimentation and they’ve been able to do it faster than the others they know.

John Taylor can do the dart motion over 300bpm. So when I say that there may be individual differences between humans, this is the kind of thing I’m referring to. Very few people play coordinated guitar lines of any kind at 260bpm. The fact that one player can do it even faster than 260 starts to seem somewhat academic.

We’re working on a spacebar tap test for the same section of the Primer, so that players who can’t figure out how to do the table tapping have an even easier motion they can try. I was able to get about 250 on the spacebar with my right hand. Then I tried it with my left hand and got 280. The motion was dart, not reverse dart.

My partner Reyenne was able to do 330. Looking at her technique, it’s very clearly just a completely different technique — it looks very similar to John’s hyperpicking motion, with some kind of interplay between elbow and wrist. We have some shots of her “hyperbutton” technique in the Primer. She uses it in gaming. I can’t do it, but it’s clearly a technique thing. I have no idea to what extent it is genetic. But it’s clear it’s just different than whatever I do, so I wouldn’t make any comments about her being “faster” until I can actually do the same technique she does.

So I think once you account for the fact that some people are actually just doing different techniques, that window for “genetic differences” gets even smaller. I think the window will still be there, but again, it becomes super academic because it occurs higher than will impact most real world playing.

So again, lots and lots of variable here. The tap tests are not conclusive of anything, they’re just supposed to be motions that are easy enough that most people, even if they’re not doing them optimally, and even if the tests aren’t the fastest motions that person can do, will still get a high number. This way if they get a very low number on actual picking, we know 100% conclusively that this is not because they “are slow”, and that more experimentation can produce a better result.

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It’s all very interesting. Great response.

So assuming we’ve got one of the ‘good’ motions already and aren’t still searching, is there a particular bpm non-injured individuals should be aiming for and not writing off as “freak”? Totally my opinion, but to me anything for sustained durations, speeds above 200bpm where the hands are synced is what I’d consider elite. Should we be thinking that 240 is within reach? That’s Rusty Cooley territory. Again, just saying “oh only people like Rusty can do that” won’t be helpful in getting faster.

You’ve talked to several players now that get well above even 220 (Marshall, Cooley, Taylor) as well as you yourself. Did you tease out any details on how they approached increasing their speeds in their formative years? Could they do those almost from the get go? Was there a period where they capped out, then somehow eclipsed it? I’m sure it’s going to be anecdotal, but you know me - I enjoy the anecdotes.

How did you go about taming your fast floppy RDT motion? Did you start with a tremolo and gradually introduce synced fretting hand patterns? If so, what patterns did you find you were able to first get a handle on? If not, what exactly did you do?

Sorry for all the questions :slight_smile: I know curiosity killed the cat, but we’re all gonna die some day :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Are you a young, non-injured person who likes metal and really wants to do some phrases, like tremolo melodies, and all-evens type single escape lines, at this speed? Yes, I think this kind of tempo is in reach for most of the people in that category if they do one of these “fast” techniques.

Again, I have no history of being super fast compared to my friends, super great at video games, or super great at sports, and I didn’t learn to hit any of these tempos until my late 40s just from dicking around with different ways of moving. No question I could have done this as a teenager, and probably almost immediately.

That’s my impression. I’ve talked to John about this, and as far as I can tell, he doesn’t really seem to remember when the speed happened and what specifically caused it. Rusty describes using an egg timer and trying to play as fast as he can for as long as he could, but not ever using a metronome and trying to “increase” his speed. I suspect he was probably already doing the elbow technique by that point and the egg timer was just how it became more coordinated for longer stretches.

My best guess is that these players learned to reach the very fast speeds by stumbling across motions that could do it, more or less the same way I did and the people in TC do. Then they learned to do smooth them out and do them for increasingly longer stretches of time. And then they learned to apply the motion to actual phrases.

I don’t work on that stuff, because we have no time. So for these very fast single escape motions, I can’t do much with them. For a very short stretch maybe a year or two ago I was trying to find five or ten minutes a day when I would work on really easy fingering patterns like 1234 and synchronize them. I got some ok-sounding phrases going that weren’t perfect but still sound pretty good though for what it was. We put one Instagram but the video got mangled somehow, the poster frame is all that’s left.

If I were in a death metal band and this was my main focus, it would be a fun project. But for right now I just don’t have the bandwidth. It’s enough to know that these motions exist and can be discovered.

If you want to get good at death metal type lines you need the motion first. Then you try to get hand sync happening on all-evens type phrases, using easy fingerings. That’s what I’d do.

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Awesome. Thanks for the time! I always appreciate your in depth replies since I know just how swamped you are. In fact I was thinking of summoning you in this conversation lol! But I didn’t due to the swamped thing so I appreciate you taking a look.

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Same! I always bang on about learning my current motions using the tremolo section of Highway Star but I’ve wondered if I’d of found a different tremolo section of a much faster song to work on, maybe I would of discovered an even more efficient motion (and I’m sick to death of practicing that part of Highway Star now)

Ah, great point!

Gotcha, would it be worth me filming a TC and seeing if my current motion could be refined? :slight_smile:

Wow, inspiring stuff!

My opinion, for anybody who isn’t aware.

While I accept that some variation in potential speed is possibly due to genetics, the fixation on “genetic potential” is problematic and can only limit development. My belief is that the mean potential speed is much faster than most would believe or expect, and the variance much smaller.

I have asked every single student of mine to complete a spacebar test. The average result on a first attempt is 7.5 to 8 hits per second, which translates to 16th notes at 225-240bpm range. Most people have the potential for more speed than they will ever want or need to use in a musical context.

I do think it’s possible to achieve some greater nervous capability with training from anecdotal experience, but this is impossible for me to verify. The first time I attempted a spacebar test I scored about 8.5 hits per second, now my average is about 10 (some days lower, some days higher). That’s a jump from 16ths at 255bpm to 16ths at about 300bpm. It’s entirely possible that I simply learned optimise my movement for the spacebar test, I can’t be sure.

It removes the challenge of tapping to a click, which makes it much easier for students. This is the one I send to students, it’s nice because it starts on the first press of the spacebar.

I tried some jitter clicking tests and I could peak at 11 hits per second (330BPM), but I could only sustain that speed for a few seconds, I can’t get that kind of speed on the spacebar test and I can’t do it consistently.

Largely the same for me, but I was “normal fast” guitar player as a teenager and I discovered I could do the super speed stuff in my early 30s. I don’t think I have any special giftedness in this regard, and I could have learned to do it much earlier.

Same. I’ve no interest in playing 1234 or 4321 patterns, so I designed some EDC patterns to try to fit single-escape alternate picking. I had them working ok for a little while, but there really isn’t much possible vocabulary in that intersection, and I don’t love any of it. I’m mostly building patterns which include hammers, dart thrower USX and hybrid picking. The phrases you can create are just more interesting to me.

Agreed.

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Sure. The main value of that is you’ll have to take the tests. If your tests are fast and your playing is slower, then we’ll probably ask you to film the tests so you should go ahead and do that.

If you want the tests themselves to go faster, then we can take a look at the motions you’re making in the tests, so we’ll also ask you to film them. The tests are realistic recreations of motions, just without the hardest aspect, which is pick attack. That’s the value. You can actually learn to do some of these motions from the tests.

The main thing is you need fast motion first, up front, either on a test or by screwing around on the guitar until something very fast happens.

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