Circle of fifths, enharmonics?

Harmony & Theory
#21

hah, in a class I took when I was like 18 or something, the teacher was showing us the altered scale and he was like “all right, so spell it out, we’ll have…” and when we got to the maj3 I said tentatively “flat…4???” because you know, we already had a 1, 2, and 3. It makes perfect sense, it’s just not the convention to call a note a flat fourth. And he laughed at me!!! I think it was in this class called “Jazz 3” for, level 3, highest in that workshop and he chuckled and said “uh, there’s no flat fourth in Jazz 3.”

Funny thing in that case is that a few years later I realized that the ‘altered’ scale is the major scale with every single tone except the root dropped a half step - that’s much easier to see with that latter spelling, but obviously has less practical use. Kind of a funny trick though. Also points out how the old conventions can have less application to certain types of harmonies. It’s certainly odd to have a 7 note scale with no 4th and no 6th, but also odd to call something a b4.

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#22

tldr; The secret of circle of fifth is that fact thst it’s actually a spiral not circle ))

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#23

Huh. That’s a pretty interesting example of a case where the traditional naming conventions DON’T make sense, although pretty clearly for a good reason, that the 3rd is the degree that arguably trumps the others in importance. Interesting.

If you were notating that, would you follow the “enharmonically correct” b4, or would you go with the top version, even though you have both a flat and sharp 2nd and flat and sharp 5th? The “correct” spelling would be easier to follow on the staff, but the one with flat and sharp 2nds and 5ths would have a heck of a lot less accidentals.

#24

We have to look at the context that we’re actually going to hear this scale.

Simplest context will be on V7 chord going to the I. So let’s say in C

G7 altered scale is, I’d say, G, Ab, A#, B, Db, D#*, F.

The D# I’m comfortable with either D# or Eb. #5 or b13.

On the staff we want to communicate what’s actually going, and it’s important to see what the harmony really is. So in the practical context you’ll actually see this scale, I’m all for the spelling I just wrote above. A musician that is familiar with altered scale harmony will reocgnizing it instantly that way, but anybody would do a double take at G Ab Bb Cb .

edited to add: worth stating that the altered scale isn’t a key center, it’s a set of pitches commonly used over a dominant chord to get a tense sound.

If it’s over the V7, it’s what I wrote above but it’s also, relative to the key, 5, b6, #6/b7, 7, b2, b3, 4.

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#25

Conventional names could be quite uninformative, but it’s just a matter of history. And context. For example, one and the same scale could be called differently: like I’d call some scale ‘melodic major’ when applied to tonal music; but I would call it ‘myxolydian b6’ in modal context. Though berkley guys call it latter name all the time.

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#26

Great post - thanks! Thinking of it as outside, I guess, color over a V7 does change how you’d want to look at it on the staff - you’re right, I was thinking “if I was writing a melody in the altered scale, how would I write it out” and not thinking about it as an approach to play over over the V.

#27

Likely both, albeit the Altered Scale (Super Locrian, Diminished-Whole-Tone, etc.) is a bit unusual in that I’m not aware of it as a “thing” outside of jazz, so I’m not even sure if there is a ‘"correct’ spelling." Furthermore it may have been first documented with a b13 rather than a #5… Being the 7th mode of melodic minor, I don’t think it qualifies as a synthetic scale. Is its use hiding in the baroque and/or classical that anyone knows of?

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#28

Can you expand on this?

#29

Without googling first, the “circle” of fifths comprises pitch and therefore ascends and descends in a spiral away from where one starts on the 2D diagram. Is there a takeaway from that? Not sure. :slight_smile:

#30

Due to equal temperament right? Though I’m still unsure

#31

I’ve done some casual study of Ravel and there’s a lot of use of modes of melodic minor. In the pieces that I worked with I don’t think I encountered 7th mode but I could be wrong, and I also wouldn’t be surprised if it came up in other pieces that I just hadn’t analyzed yet.

Tangentially, and sorry to be OT but the way he used the ‘modes’ was very cool and I’d highly recommend anybody who is learning about melodic minor to check out scores for his piano trio and string quartet.

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#32

Is any of this stuff in the public domain and reasonably guitar-friendly? Or is there a good secondary source to dig into some of the analysis? I’m an extremely bad sight-reader but could probably wade through the original scores, but I’d probably internalize the lessons faster in the context of, say, a good article on his use of the melodic minor modes.

Also, I should start trying to work that scale and its modes into my own playing more than I do - I almost never practice it so it feels alien to me, but I remember the melodic minor parent having a pretty cool tonality…

#33

Or is it? :wink:

#1  2  3  4  5  6  7

Or,

5  b6  b7  b1  b2  b3  4

So—and as I’m certain @JakeEstner is aware—a different enharmonic spelling may very well unlock additional insight in context.

@WhammyStarScream, sounds to me like a good book on tonal harmony would be beneficial towards structuring your theoretical knowledge away from the superficial curiosity and towards the deeper concepts. At some point questions like this amount to “why is the letter ‘g’ shaped like a letter ‘g’” when the original goal may have been to write the next great novel, yes? The google machine can make up some answer to the former along the way, I’m sure. :slight_smile:

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#34

I will have a look, though I think it’s less why is g shaped as a, g. And more of a legit question as there is documented history about why the keys are called what they are, In my visualisation the enharmonic notes are fixed as sharps, due to the necessity of having unchanging information so I can memorize and apply to the guitar rather than go down these deep rabbit holes that I currently am. I’m looking at them as two bits of information now, sharp and flat, and understand it due to history, staff readability and pitch direction context. Tho I still need to learn the caveats and rules that govern this for it to make sense. As you recommend I will look into it, I see a rick beato video in search results and will check that out.

#35

They’re absolutely legitimate questions. Just pointing out that there are many questions to be asked, and a little structure can keep one out of the weeds while dealing with the limitations of the courses you’ve described. Some of the books out there cover these topics as they go. And, some of these books are harder to digest if you come to them later in your theoretical understanding. Not everyone wants to read about sharps and flats when studying figured bass, and others don’t want to read about figured bass when they’re just getting started with enharmonic notation. (Figured bass is just one of many topics covered in traditional settings.)

Hopefully the way folks have talked around the question has shed some light on the necessity to be able to see any given musical structure in more than one light. :slight_smile:

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#36

It may be called A sharp! And may be called Cbb. And some of those key centers imply more accidentals than another and thus are not often used or thought about. At the bottom of the circle you’ll often see several enharmonic keys overlapping because they’re actually used and both comprise many accidentals. E.g. Gb vs. F#

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#37

I wouldn’t necessarily recommend this - memorizing that an A# and a Bb are the same pitch isn’t all that hard, and there are reasons for notating some notes as flats and some notes as sharps (namely, you don’t want to have, say, an A and an A# in the same diatonic scale). In the long run, honestly, I promise it’s less confusing than always thinking of F# as Gb, which is a bit confusing when you’re, say, playing in the key of G.

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#38

Right, like I said I am changing that.
Though for a beginner, saying a note is two different names will confuse them, the information will be uncertain, and forgotten.

#39

All depends on how the concepts are introduced, and when.

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#40

Are there any single syllable words for the enharmonics?
For example singing a song in my head works with the natural notes but, saying C sharp, D sharp is two and can’t be used. Danger zone for example, Dah duh, du du duh… The guitar riff, I can use the natural notes, C D, D D Dee, but not the extra sharp or flat. Ruins the speed/rhythm.

Perhaps solfege…