Hi - sorry you’re having trouble here! Just to clarify, these sound like two different problems to me. Is the first comment referring to the roll pattern, and the second one referring to the single-string phrase? Because a smooth 180 sixteenths is a professional level of speed and smoothness for most playing. Are you also experiencing the grip tension and arm tension when you do that, or is that just the roll playing? Which picking motion and arm setup are you using for that?
Thanks @Troy.
Ok - problem one (forearm seizing up, death grip on pick with thumb) happens on single note picking and scalar lines. I don’t have my phone, but tried my best to record this on my i-pad: do you think you can see what’s going on here? I can’t really play single notes at 16th notes at 160bpm for more than 1 bar, and whiskey before breakfast sounds horrible at 120bpm:
However - the roll I can do for 2 bars at around 150 triplets before my hand seems to forget the mechanic and conk out:
I think that my motions for single string picking and scalar stuff are too small maybe? after one bar my motions are so small sometimes I feel like I am just scratching the string rather than playing it. and then when I want to change strings, my hand is stuck in a groove of moving a tiny amount, plus gripping the pick Tightly and doesn’t move enough to get to the next string…??
I am trying to be slightly supinated, and I am trying to crosspick “whiskey”, but the 902 motion does not want to happen at anything close to a good speed. When I play it at something like 80bpm it happens, but that’s too slow to really to be able to tell if I have actually learnt the motion…
So it feels like I have a multidude of issues to deal with - tension, motion size, motion path…what the heck do I do here? I’m clutching at straws!
Thanks for the followups! These are helpful. Yes some of these motions seem a little forced and small, and I hear the scratchyness you’re referring to.
First and foremost, as a general comment, don’t put hours into something if it’s not working. If you hammer away at the same motion even though it doesn’t feel quite right, and you see little improvement over days or weeks - that’s how injury starts, and that’s not a road we want to go down. Instead, take this as a successful negative test result. In other words, ok, that didn’t work, let’s try something else. If you can’t figure out what else to try, it’s ok to not play until you come with up with something else to work on. That’s not giving up - it’s just being smart. Others have suggested maybe taking time off, and that’s always a great idea if you’ve been playing a lot.
In general if you haven’t figured out what a fast smooth motion feels like, then that is the first order of business and I wouldn’t worry so much about which kind of motion it is. Others have suggested strumming — fine choice. Related to strummy movements are the upstroke-escape family of picking motions which involve a little forearm.
In the “Intro To Picking Motion” talk, these motions are covered in the section that runs from about 56 minutes to 1:13 or so. These are not motions that work for roll playing because they are upstroke escape only. But they work great for gypsy jazz and that’s another cool style that sounds great on acoustic.
There are two forms of this - the flexed form and the lightly flexed form. I demo them both in the talk, and in the interest of again mixing it up, you can try them both. Here’s an example of what the flexed form looks like, starting at about 31 seconds in:
The point here is not to learn Gypsy jazz or Yngwie or even roll playing - it’s to learn what fast, smooth, and loud feels like. Once you find a motion you can do that you can do quickly, feels good, and produces loud clear sound, then you’ll know when you’re achieving that same feeling of fluidity with other motions, even if their form is totally different. This means you’ll know when you’re getting results and it’s worth doing more of something, and you’ll also know when a thing is not working and it’s time to do something different.
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Hi
thanks for this! This is very clear - thank you for these points @Troy.
Ok so can I just clarify to make sure I understand - sometimes I tend to misinterpet things then go off on the wrong track!:
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So I should just search for a fast, fluid motion that is easy. It could be UWPS, DWPS, Crosspicking or whatever (but not stringhopping, which I assume never feels fast and fluid).
Once I get it - I will know what fast/fluid feels like. Then that feeling will guide my attempts at other motions to know when I have them?? -
my motions are very small, forced and rigid in the single string video clip. All the clips in the Intro to picking video seem to show that actually the pick is moving quite a large distance compared to me. Looking at Andy wood and Albert Lee (I love these guys, they are so good!) - they are using rest strokes quite a bit - I see the pick slamming into the string above/below the one they are picking, it’s almost like they are using that SLAM! to stop and go in the other direction. And then on the other side of the picking motion, they are escaping the plane of the strings, and then going past the next string (so that they can pick it if they need to).
Is that the kind of distance I should be going for in my fluid and smooth motion? It is more than I am moving, and they are picking at faster tempos then me, which means that their hands are moving at a faster frequency than mine!
Thanks again,
Hi superslip103,
First of all, don’t assume you’re all alone with that kind of a problem. I was thinking the same about myself until I realized quite a few people struggle just to find a picking motion that works.
I wish you good luck in that quest, I’m personnaly still trying to find a way to make any motion feel right, without success so far, but it seems most people agree that by trying various things, we end up having some kind of an “AHAH” moment. Then it’s a matter of finding it back so it becomes the new habit.
Taking a break might be a good idea, as I absolutely understand your frustration.
It might work or it might not (I’m on my third forced long break after breaking my left collarbone three times this year (note to myself : stop moutain biking), and every time I pick up the guitar after a couple of months away from it, it feels just the same a before)… But you don’t risk much by changings things up if you feel your technique is not working as is it, anyway!
That’s right! You can just keep adding motions over time. But you have at least know what smooth feels like first or you’re just feeling around in the dark.
I wouldn’t worry about distance so much as the feeling of smoothness, the clarity of the attack, the speed, and the volume. If you can get a clear, consistent sound while moving fast and fluidly that’s the main thing. If it helps for you to think “make a big motion”, or “make a small motion”, that’s fine, but I wouldn’t worry about needing to do either. In actuality the “size” of the picking motion is the result of how fast and forcefully you’re moving, not the cause of how fast and forcefully you’re moving. Use whatever mental process gets you to the result you are looking for.
You will see lots of this in single-escape motions. I do it as well. A number of forum posters have suggested that it may even be helpful for learning these motions to specifically and intentionally try to make this happen. Meaning, some people may only know how to do a double escape motion, and for them, they can’t actually figure out how to produce a picking motion that buries itself in the strings half the time. So making a motion that actually feels like it contacts the far string reinforces the trajectory that the pickstroke needs to follow. You can certainly give that a shot.
I would simply say that when I do this it doesn’t feel effortful. When the pick is traveling along a path into the strings with almost any amount of force, it will very often hit that far string. When done with a fluid motion, it’s not even a thing you really notice.
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Ok, thanks @Troy, I will try this, the rest stroke idea sounds worth a shot.
I will try not to wait 3 months again before posting, that is a LONG feedback loop.
Thanks!
Hey @Mando
Thanks for your kind words. It’s in a way a comfort to know others don’t find this easy at first too!
I’m sorry to hear about your injuries and struggles, I hope you can get better soon and get back on this!
Do you play mandolin, hence your name?
Hi! Ok I think I have a position and a picking motion that works!
Have a look at this!
so - I think this is UWPS, It feels fast, smooth, effortless (there is a little tension in my forearm but WAAAY less than before). It’s a good tone, and I feel like I can do this for a long time.
I just had to:
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pronate my arm so that the radial side (thumb side) rests on the body of the guitar, so that it takes some weight off for me.
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Focus on using just the real tip of the pick, and try to make bigger motions (that worked for me, as actually the bigger my motions get, the easier it feels)
Is this the kind of thing you mean? It feels good, it’s exciting! Can I go forward with this?
The only thing I notice is that when I try to play more than one note (i.e start using my left hand to change frets), the tension returns. Is this the next thing to conquer?
Bingpot? I think?!
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Ok - I think I am starting to get this - I went back to the Pickslanting Primer course I first bought in July and found a Strunz and Farah lick - this is me actually doing a bit of it over 3 string at around 100 16th note triplets. It’s not perfect but it’s WAAAY easier and smoother than I could do before.
I can’t actually believe that I actually just did that 
I don’t know what a bingpot is, but if is a talisman of personal success I’d say you found one! Nice work here. This looks good and sounds good.
Re: the Strunz and Farah clip, I like the first “success” clip better because it’s continuous and smooth, and I can hear the pick attack / tone loudly and clearly. Based on your feedback that it feels good, I know that this is every bit correct, because it sounds like it. By contrast, short chunks like the Strunz and Farah excerpt are almost over before they begin. There’s less opportunity to feel if your synchronization is on, hear if your tone is good, and so on.
Now that you know what smooth feels like, just try and translate that feeling to more musical playing. Single-string stuff is great for this because you can get going and stay going. It’s good for learning hand synchronization, and can be fun if you just wing it and make up cool patterns to entertain yourself. Here’s an example at approximately 160bpm:
I’m just making stuff up here. You can do the same. Honestly I don’t like metronomes for this because it distracts me from the feeling of smoothness. It’s like someone yelling in my ear to be a certain tempo when instead I should be focusing on feel. If you have grown up with the cult of the metronome, I would consider turning it off during this playful experimentation phase.
I wouldn’t worry too much about what is causing the “tension” since you now know what it feels like not to have it. Just pursue that feeling on as wide an array of different ideas as you can. And don’t worry about putting in “time” on this, like a job. A little here and there, whenever you feel like it, is great. “Practice”, if you want to call it that, for as long as it entertains you, and not more.
If you pick up the guitar and you notice that things are a little better than they used to be, and you can’t recall exactly when they got that way — that’s my favorite way to learn.
Again, great work here.
Ok great - thanks for sketching that out for me! 
The one string single note feels really nice to me now this evening - and I will give the single string noodling a go - I’ve just tried it and my hand synchronization sucks! So I need to work on that, but just being able to pick like that feels amazing, and things just seem that little bit more achievable now.
So just to clarify - one string patterns at a comfortable, smooth feel with my new picking action.
Can I ask a question about the fretting hand - which I haven’t considered much- I have read/watched video’s and had a lesson this week and the general advice is to place your finger just behind the metal fret, and not in the middle of the space - is this important to work on or not so important?
I wouldn’t just stick at this speed because it’s comfortable. This speed didn’t even exist yesterday! You only got here by searching for it. If you can just wake up one day suddenly and do a smooth, good-sounding 160, then that’s probably not the fastest you can go. Which means that the motion probably isn’t as smooth as it can be yet. So keep up with the “search for easy” by always trying new speeds and you’ll probably unlock some more of that over time.
Personal confession, I hate the phrase “noodling”! I’m not sure why. I’ll have to think about it. But if by that you mean adopting a playful approach, yes, definitely. And in that respect, “noodling” is probably a better word than “practice”, since it’s about discovery and not repetition per se.
I never “worked on” fretting, but I think we all worked on sounding good. With heavier strings, a note will definitely fret out if you’re not somewher near the bar. But again, I never paid conscious attention to this. If there was a point early on when notes were dying out on me, then I must have fixed this by sound/feel.
I’ve heard recommendations to try bass guitar for a little bit to become more aware of this. It’s true, those strings are like undersea telecom cables. You need to fret them near the bar or your hand will quickly tire.
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Ok thanks, I will try this - actually just doing a bit this morning has helped me synched things up a little bit better. Also the tension that comes with fretting notes is starting to feel less now. You are right, actually this is fun!
Thanks - I will give this a go then post back hopefully…
It’s a quote from Brookyn 9-9 - it’s a great show, if you have time check it out!
HI!!
Ok I think I am definitely getting somewhere with this. This is a six note pattern - I think my synchronization is getting better, and this is 16th note triplets at 105bpm (roughly, no metronome anymore for me), which is close to 160bpm 16th notes. I think this is good (not totally synched left and right hands though, but getting there) and definitely a big jump in smoothness of feel for me - it just feels easy.
Also when I try 3nps Strunz and Farah segments, I can easily change strings after a downstroke now, these are a bit sloppy but they feel so smooth, there definitely doesn’t feel like any jumping between strings!
Ok - so I think this means I am an “upward pickslanter”. I did try downward pick slanting over the weekend in loads of different positions - it just hasn’t clicked for me like UWPS did in such a short time. So my questions, without jumping the gun too much are:
- If I start to become an UWPS, then that’s fine for patterns which start on a downstroke and play an odd number of notes per string (and end on a downstroke), but what about all the cool pentatonic licks which are 2/4 notes per string?? Is it acceptable to start these with an upstroke - like I saw in the John Mclaughlin video? Or do I need to at some point learn how to DWPS these lines?
- If I want to play through a 3nps scale in this orientation, do I do the andy wood style very fast forearm rotation? Is this not string hopping, but ok since it’s only every 6 notes?
- Crosspicking - this has encouraged me to maybe go back to trying a pronated 10-0-3 crosspicking position - trying the supinated 9-0-2 for months just did not work at all. This one isn’t really a question, more a reminder for me to do this…
Anyway thanks again!! I’m a much happier bunny today with regards to this 
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I wouldn’t get in the mindset of thinking that you “are” or “are not” a certain kind of picking motion. It’s just a motion you’ve learned how to do. You can learn any motion(s) you like. You’re just new at this, that’s all.
Yes of course you can play pentatonic lines starting on an upstroke. That would be like saying you should avoid playing two notes on a string if you have to start on an upstroke. Think of all the musical situations that might require you to do something like that.
Here’s Andy Wood doing some awesome pentatonic stuff on an upstroke:
It’s not clear to me that what you’re doing is pronated. Pronated players like Molly Tuttle turn the forearm so the whole ulna is off the guitar and not touching. The only the part of Molly’s hand that touches the strings is the thenar eminence / thumb heel. Your form looks more similar to Andy’s who is a supinated player.
But that’s kind of academic — I wouldn’t worry about what you’re doing, only that you can do it. The only other thing I’d suggest is that when you’re practicing these things, try not to do these super short bursty things with only one or two repetitions of a short phrase. It’s too hard to determine if your hands are locked up over such a short amount of time. Over longer stretches, with accents on the initial note of the pattern, you stand a better chance of being able to feel the synchronization.
If you ask me to play two super fast reps of something, I can only do that because I have it locked up already. But when I was learning that’s not what I did. I played lines more like this:
If you watch this in slow motion, and then additionally drop the speed slider to 50%, you’ll see that the first note of each repetition of the pattern is actually larger, going way over the B string. I can’t really feel that when I’m playing, but this is apparently what I’m doing to maintain sync. And I do this with all picking motions, even things like elbow which I almost never use. It’s universal, in my case.
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Hi,
oh yeah I see what you mean, wow you are going a long way past the string and then coming back - and still playing at 130bpm. Even at that tempo you look like your picking motion is bigger than mine
Ok - what that says to me is that the speed comes from the smoothness and co-ordination. Maybe it’s a bit like sprinters being told to relax everything and run smooth, that gets them quicker rather than tensing up and trying to grimace their face and bust a gut to get through that 100m…
Thanks for this - ok I’ll try doing longer patterns. When I try to do these patterns for more than 1 bar, my left hand seems to make mistakes and falls apart, so that might be a “brain” thing which just should be fixed by playing for longer…?
The more we observe, the more I think that’s true. But try not worry about motion size - it’s the result of various factors not the cause of them. For example, if you play with a flexed wrist and forearm rotation, then the same “size” of motion at the arm will produce much more travel at the pick, just because the flexed wrist places the pick farther away from the point of rotation. This is why Eddie Van Halen gets these huge picking motions even though he’s going 210-220 beats per minute sixteenth notes.
With respect to EVH and his forearm motion, the things we discuss here are probably similarly relevant to the motion you’re using here, in terms of smoothness and doing it for longer durations:
You can also experiment with trying to do the forearm thing too, to see if it offers any insight into your wrist work. It’s so different in feel from the motion you’re using, I doubt it will interfere at all. And it’s also fun.
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Hey!
So I’ve tried to have another go at looking for the cross picking motion again.
How does this look? I don’t know I guess I am searching for smooth and fast, even if it is a bit sloppy. It doesn’t quite feel as smooth and easy at the downward stroke escape motion I found, but is that because this is harder to do over 3 strings then just single string picking? This feels not bad to me, kinda smooth, and a little less bouncy than my other attempts, but I still may be way off here, I don’t know. It’s at around triplets at 140 I think
One thing I am trying to work on is not rotating the forearm on the upstroke to escape the plane of the strings…
Anyway does it look like I am getting closer at all?
Thanks!
Rohit
Hey
actually I think this is getting closer to the motion that I want?
To me it feels more like just going left and right, and not in a U shape. plus it feels a lot smoother, does it look any better to ppl?
One thing I notice - is that if it is correct, it’s a bit like riding a bike. I can do it fast and smooth for around 1 bar, and then on the second bar, my brain/hand wants to do the old stringhoppy motion, and I have to try and force my hand to just move straighter - is this normal and part of the motor learning process? I can remember learning to ride a bike, once you get it, you can do it for short distance initially, then you lose balance and start to wobble and fall over. is this what happens here too?
Thanks
Ro
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