DBX vs stringhopping

Playing Technique
#2

I know exactly what you mean. I think the theory here is that DBX is efficient from that supinated RDT posture because the escaped downstrokes are extension plus ulnar deviation, while the upstrokes are just radial deviation. String-hopping on the other hand has built-in muscle reuse (like every pickstroke uses both flexion and extension) and is therefore both slower and with much lower endurance.

That said, I don’t think you’re supposed to do DBX per se, you just practice mixed escape lines from that general form and aim to get things clean.

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#3

I don’t know what the definition of string hopping is, but I suspect that an efficient motion starts one muscle and then lets it rest for one stroke, and then starts another muscle and lets it rest for the reciprocal stroke. So if one is doing DBX with forearm rotation it should be efficient, I suspect. But if one is doing DBX by lowering their pick down, sliding it over, and then pulling it up (via wrist), that would presumably be inefficient, hence be “string hopping?”

#4

Wrist extension on downstrokes and upstrokes (consecutively).

#5

I think the the crosspicking and stringhopping presets on this site demonstrate the differences quite nicely: https://pickbotpick.netlify.app/

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#6

Oh cool. Didn’t know this existed. Interesting, thanks.

#7

So…next question, what’s the specific technical difference between DBX and crosspicking?

#8

In my mind they are basically synonyms. I associate crosspicking with arpeggios for whatever reason. But bluegrass players (often where we hear the term) weave scalar lines in between these alternate picked arpeggios and depending on the player, they maintain the same picking motion.

That’s probably the biggest “difference” is that DBX is just a term Troy came up with to describe curved motions. It’s commonly used when people crosspick.

#9

Yeah Bluegrass players will often have DBX or DSX as their main picking mechanic but will refer to 1nps picked, arpeggiated chords as “crosspicking”. This could be completely alternate picked with DBX, or involve a sweep element down, down, up like Tony Rice or up, up, down like George Shuffler (if I remember correctly).

This sort of thing:

Troy initially referred to all DBX as crosspicking but that is not how Bluegrass players would use the term and has since stopped using the term crosspicking to describe DBX.

This would be another example of crosspicking:

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#10

Man I could listen to Bluegrass instrumental guitar all day. I’ve got to be in the right mood for that type of vocals though lol! And I am very rarely in that mood!!! Ha!

Those beautiful picked arpeggios though. Just…chef’s kiss! I blame them (and Anton Oparin) for my current detour/rabbit hole of the past 2 years. It’s just such fun stuff to play too.

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#11

Oh man, I love it! Only just coming back to my electric to try and tackle some of Tumeni Notes after a year or so diving into Bluegrass, such a beautiful tradition and culture around the music!

I was exactly the same with the vocals, Billy Strings and New Grass Revival were my gateway into it. The rhythm and DBX chops in this from Sierra and Billy are just insane:

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#12

Billy Strings vox I can actually dig. I took vocal lessons for a few years and it’s the same problem with guitar…the more I learn about technique the pickier I get. Stuff that used to be “ok” I can’t tolerate anymore lol! The trademark twang/nasality just boils down to some lazy technique. The soft palette lowers and the sounds travels out through the nose. If they’d dial that out I’d probably be more into the vox.

The other thing…I don’t rant about this much because it’s a guitar forum, but probably my favorite thing in all of music is vocal harmonies. I’m also picky about the voicing and voice leading used. Super elegant stuff wouldn’t fly in the bluegrass genre. But…almost everything I hear, even among “good” vocal groups sounds a little out of tune to my ear. I know, I’m a snob.

You may all return to your regularly scheduled picking program.

Can you do Tumeni Notes yet at target tempo? I have all the faith in the world in you. You might be the best motion learner we’ve seen besides Troy!

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#13

Oh man I long the twang!

Damn, I love the harmonies in Bluegrass, especially when it gets more Gospel like some of the Foggy Mountain Gospel stuff from Flatt & Scruggs or some Ralph Stanley. What do you make of these harmonies? To me listening to this is like a religious experience!

I just started learning it today so I’m still getting it under my fingers at the moment. Very kind of you to say! DBX has become my default more recently and it wasn’t until Troy demonstrated how quickly you can switch between DBX and USX that I’ve started experimenting with some single escape again, all that being said 1nps feels better than it ever did but I haven’t put a lot of time into it specifically so Tumeni Notes will be great practice :grin:

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#14

I don’t fault anyone for liking anything lol! And that stuff sounds really cool that you linked. Plus, I can see people actually liking the out of tune because there is something very human about it. I guess it’s just that my favorite vocal harmony things are very “polished” and that’s what I like the best.

Good luck! Looking forward to your progress. I sort of gave up on it since I couldn’t get fast enough with no swipes lol! I should try it again, keeping the swipes. They’re good enough for Steve Morse and Andy Wood’s (2 gods among mortals) versions so I don’t know why I’d hold myself, a basement playing hack, to a higher standard.

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#15

I think that they are unrelated concepts.

DBX starts escaped and ends escaped.

Crosspicking is Crosspicking - Wikipedia

#16

While I’m not one to argue with Wikipedia, around here it’s nearly always in the context of strict alternate picking. They mention this in one of the breakdowns:

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And while you don’t have to accomplish that with DBX, most players who choose to alternate pick their “crosspicking” do use DBX.

Splitting hairs aside, and getting back to the application of “how do we do this?”, I think this is all more “descriptive” than “prescriptive” and @Riffdiculous mentioned this. We don’t try to make the pick strokes curved, we just move the wrist back and forth from a certain posture/grip and a zero-degree pickslant is nearly always in the mix when we do the wrist based form of this. The path the wrist moves the pick (probably combined with some deflection as the pick hits the strings) helps achieve that curve.

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#17

Well, there are lots of escape hatches like sweeping, etc., so I can’t tell exactly what most people mean. But I would say, “crosspicking likely involves one or more DBX movements per each three string traversal,” or something like that.

The thing about CtC is that no single level of detail will work, as some want the TL;DR and others want to dive deep. This website would be ideal for some kind of LLM to give summaries for the impatient readers! :grinning:

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#18

Does Anton play any of that acoustic ringing out arpeggio stuff?

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#19

I’m a fanboy, but so far I haven’t seen much Anton cannot do. He’s even really good at legato (though he rarely showcases).

Here’s some nice acoustic arpeggios from him though.

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#20

I have similar questions/problems with DBX vs. stringhopping. I was taught to play with strict alternate picking - downstroke for downbeats and upstrokes for upbeats. When I do crosspicking I use strict DUDU picking, not DDU.
My problem is that I can’t pick very fast – I hit the wall at moderate speed, and I think it’s because I’m stringhopping, which seems to be my default technique.
How do I fix this?

#21

I had early success with DBX. Very much a “happy path”. You have to scroll more to the bottom where I went into more details of what I did re: learning the motion.

The big TL;DR is that people try to do a DBX motion. You should be trying to play mostly flat and trust that the motion you are using (assuming proper grip/angles/joint motion etc) are doing their job. It mainly feels like moving the wrist back and forth when you do it correctly. Maybe some moderate rotation or some helper motion (grip movement) if there are string skips.

Good luck!