Bouncing and hopping?
Best way to see the double down gypsy stroke is the Joscho Stephan interview on here. It’s a DWPS downstroke, with a flick of your wrist that returns the pick to it’s original position (upstroke without hitting a string), ready to do another downstroke (on any string).
2:30 on this video he explains it.
Why is it taking away creativity? Still the player has to decide if he wants to play it the way it’s notated, there’s no difference to the way tabs are used actually, just the information we get 'd be more detailed.
It’s like adding more colors to the palette, I’d say it opens the door for more creativity.
Apology accepted! I’m glad that we’re both seeing eye to eye now and again, that chart you made is a very cool idea!
@Acecrusher I understand your point about creativity, but this very forum and CTC exist out of an immense frustration of not being able to figure out what is happening picking wise.
I think that giving the information ENHANCES creativity, because then you are introduced to concepts you might not have even thought about.
I know it does for me, but we can agree to disagree on that one. Cheers.
Some relevant conversation here as well:
(NB: relevant not specifically to @JakeEstner’s chart enumerating different string change possibilities, but to the now-expanded scope of this thread re: how / whether these sort of picking movements should or could be notated 
)
@Sambamajam super interesting, thanks! I wonder what kind of bpms are possible with that half rest stroke. To me it just seems basically like a DWPS and then a complete repositioning of the pick, although done quickly.
I haven’t personally explored gypsy too much, I know that the notes-per-second can get insane but have never seen an analysis of how many string in those licks go ‘against’ (so to speak) the natural DWPS nature of the style.
@nitro1976 I hear you, but what I’m actually driving it here is, in my opinion, more valuable: Teaching individuals how to problem solve . The idea is, you can look at a passage and refinger it or re-organize the pick strokes and/or slants to play it in a way that is easier and/or gets you more of the timbre you want.
After a lot of study of the fretboard and CTC personally I feel comfortable with a lot of different refingerings and re-arrangements, so when I look at something I can’t play yet I have a lot of tools for getting under the hood and figuring out how to make it playable. Then if I see some skills that are needed that I don’t have quite developed yet, well then, I know what to practice.
@nitro1976 I agree with you here. Ultimately, the subject is going to be pretty subjective, but I think it’s a boost to creativity to see what is possible within the different limitations of different picking systems/approaches. But again, it’s subjective. Creativity is a somewhat intangible and controversial thing.
potentially a little off topic but something I was thinking about recently (maybe I coined these terms?) is the terms ‘instroke’ and ‘outstroke’ in addition to ‘downstroke’ and ‘upstroke.’ Obviously, with slanting, a pick stroke that puts you under the plane of the strings (‘instroke’) vs a pick stroke that puts you out of the plane of the strings (‘outstroke’)
So with pick slanting, we can change strings in the direction of the slant after an instroke (economy picking) but can only change strings against the direction of the slant after an outstroke.
I guess that language has to account for swiping, hmm. I’ll work on it.
Copyright Jake Estner 2018
I dunno, I think that people will always be creative if they want to be. I don’t think that adding another layer of accuracy to a transcription or tab for people to use as a reference will squash someone else’s ideas. If they have ideas then they’ll find a way to get them out. I think that having the reference available will probably encourage more people to pick up a guitar and push themselves into learning stuff they might have found impossible otherwise. Ultimately, finding new and interesting ways to get kids into playing guitar (and to KEEP them playing guitar) is what’s best for our community.
ElementOs, you make some convincing points. While I’m not saying I’m abandoning the points I made earlier, I’m willing to admit that you may be right in your idea that putting exact instructions on which pick slant to use on each note won’t squash someone else’s ideas. i just think that making people use their minds as well as their “physical intuition” by not including exact instructions for which pick slant to use on each note is a positive thing in that it actually requires people to use their minds and their physical intuition.
My favorite line of yours in that post is “f they have ideas then they’ll find a way to get them out.”
As for “KEEPING then (kids) playing guitar”, my belief is that if a kid has a passion for playing the guitar, you won’t have to worry about keeping him playing guitar. Your biggest worry will be trying to get him to tear himself away from his guitar practice for long enough to come to the dining room for dinner when it’s time for dinner to be served!
Indeed. The “rage to master” will always be there in certain people, instructional material be damned. I’ve been teaching for about 8 years now. The ways that people learn are so widespread that it’s tough for me to make a hard judgement on what exactly is the “best” way to learn or how people become “great”.
Speaking for myself, my physical intuition is pretty bad. I’m horrible at sports, my handwriting is a dumpster fire and my guitar can be a sloppy mess. However, the lessons I’ve picked up from CTC have helped me play to what strengths I DO have, which have opened some great creative doors for me that I might not have found if I were still stumbling around in the dark. I’m probably never going to be one of the greats but I’ve at least stumbled a few steps in a better direction. Cheers!
Thank you for sharing this. I love when people develop a clear and concise way of presenting material/concepts. If I used it with my students, I’d probably put the down/up notation between the tab and notes above it. It works the way it is, but that would be my little tweak. Thanks again for sharing.
thanks for the support, Joe! It’s guitar pro, so the location of the pick strokes are automated BUT I agree with you and could easily doctor it up as you describe.
aaaaahahahaahhahaha
I just KNEW crosspicking would be at the bottom
I am suprised this is the only post I found when I searched for half rest stroke. The only way I have found to speed these up is by using swing tempo, and scottish swing to exercise trickery my brain to keep the motion relaxed and tension free so when I double time I can sometimes make it. I need to keep doing this sort of thing on a daily basis or every other day perhaps to see if I can make some head way into the 10nps department to catch up with my thumb index economy technique. And I would be happy with 10nps trust me, 12nps can take a hike in this half rest stroke area. haha!
I would say if you are curious go check out some of Stochelo Rosenbergs free videos on YouTube referencing his Rosenberg Academy song lessons. They leave out the right hand video footage shot, but if you see descending lines, especially arpeggio style ones, it’s all downs. It is some of the most impressive feat with picking I have ever seen. Christiaan van Hemert always jokes that it breaks the laws of physics, he was the guy I believe doing the video work, and he did the transcriptions. I always slow down just to watch cause even at speed sometimes I feel like he is cheating. But I always get humbled when I witness it slowed down.
