Nice man! cool stuff!
I’ve been thinking about this comment. I know forum opinions can get heated when people feel strongly, so please don’t take any of this as me being upset or being aggressively arguing. I have a lot of respect for your opinions. You’re one of the most accomplished transcribers I’ve crossed paths with and you clearly know your stuff. Also, I state all this with humility. I’d never dream of questioning the abilities or contributions of players like Holdsworth or Harrison. That said, I don’t know that amazing technique necessarily equates to tonal awareness. Those are 2 different skills. There are audio engineers who can pinpoint specific frequencies and hear tone on a level most humans don’t…but they can’t play a simple pentatonic scale 
My perspective on this topic of descending hammers as a whole is that classical guitarists are much more tone conscious than guitarists in other genres, in general. I know everyone talks about tone all the time, but when all you have to create the tone is your fingers, no amp, no mic, it is a different ballgame. I was a rock guitarist for several years before seriously studying classical guitar. And by studying, I mean getting lessons from awarded conservatory trained classical guitarists and majoring in music with a concentration on classical guitar performance. I didn’t just casually take lessons from some guy at a local music store. I was immersed in it for years.
When I began, I couldn’t believe how much emphasis the purists placed on tone production. Before even playing pieces or even traditional exercises, I had to learn how to create a full and consistent tone. This required carefully shaped fingernails of just the right length, which then had to be 3-step buffed. The nails must be as smooth as glass so there isn’t even the hint of scratchiness in the sound. If just the right combination of fingertip flesh and fingernail aren’t used when plucking the string (at just the right angle), the results just aren’t good. I mention all this because I had no idea this was involved. I thought playing classical guitar just meant playing classical pieces on a guitar with nylon strings, fingerstyle. What it takes to produce the sounds we hear from a master like John Williams, Christopher Parkening or David Russell is almost taken for granted because they make it look so effortless. I just don’t think any other genre of guitar puts that type of detail into their tone production. They don’t need to either, because they are aided by a pick, or an amp, or steel strings.
So with that as a backdrop, when it comes to tone production, I am almost always going to side with what the classical guitar community preaches. If classical guitarists, with centuries of tradition that has been gradually refined, say “though shalt play descending slurs like so”, I’m going to listen. If some amazing electric guitarists, like Holdsworth or Harrison has an alternate perspective I definitely consider it as viable. But when I play an electric guitar with, or without distortion, and I use classical technique on the slurs (which I have to date seen no rock guitarist do), I hear no difference in tone whether ascending or descending. To me, that accomplishes what they were trying to do, just with a different technique. It satisfies what Marshall Harrison said about each note ringing until the next note is played. Descending hammers, by definition, do not satisfy this criteria.
My last point about “arguing” with players of an elite caliber:
I absolutely think we should question everything elite players say, and do. This site itself exists because Troy questioned things. What the elite were saying they did, and what they were actually doing, were not the same thing. In one of Troy’s videos he detailed a conversation he had with MAB on a forum years ago, where Troy made a flash animation of his theory on escaped picking. MAB’s response? This isn’t a direct quote, but it was to the effect of “Nice animation. I don’t think anyone really picks that way though”. Astonishing! And this is coming from someone with almost unparalleled picking technique, who definitely has an escape in his picking! Additionally, how many elite players have declined to even be interviewed by Troy because they don’t think there’s anything magical about their right hand technique and that everyone should just find their own path? At least John McLaughlin and Guthrie Govan have responded with a similar graceful declination. The point is, these guys are awesome, but we shouldn’t hang on their every word. They aren’t correct about everything.
This is my main point. I don’t think, to my knowledge, any rock players approach legato as the classical guys do. This is “another way possible” that I don’t think has been explored in the electric guitar realm. I think if it were given a fair shot, it would be seen as a superior way of accomplishing, from a pure tone projection standpoint, the endeavors of descending hammers. I’m pushing this so hard because I think it’s something most people don’t know about. It should get some daylight. I think it’s also easier to master than descending hammers. So anyone putting in tons of effort in learning descending hammers just might get everything they’re after if they’d slur like they went to Julliard
So @LuckyMojo, I hope nothing I put in here is taken offensively. If we were in the same room talking about this over a beer, I’d have a smile on my face while stating all my points. Really just trying to bounce some ideas around on the community. I think in general there is a lack of awareness of classical guitar technique among rock guitarists. I’ve lived extensively in both worlds and I’m just trying to share some perspective. Thanks again for all the awesome videos you posted on this thread! And though unrelated, thanks for all the amazing transcriptions you’ve posted on this forum! You’re doing a great service.
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Can you re-clarify how you think the classical approach to legato should be explored on guitar? From my understanding youre saying every “legato” played note should have no difference in volume or tone correct?
In a separate thread I posted a video of a good classical guitarist demonstrating this
A few posts down I uploaded a video…please don’t judge the capabilities by my performance. I’ve only been practicing picking lately, my legato playing is not presentable right now. I only put that video up because someone asked me to demo it on electric. Also, video quality is not great and you’ll hear a blend of the sound from the strings and my amp (which is under my desk haha) so you’d have to actually be in the room (or play it yourself) to hear how it really should sound. The main thesis is that pulloffs, in classical technique, should be pulled downward, creating a small rest stroke, if you will. This should give the same tone/volume in pulloffs as we hear in hammers.
I get the idea. That is how I was taught pulloffs. By pulling/snapping the finger down. That’s really how I do them. I feel like the descending hammer on is just for a different tonal variety.
Hi @joebegly.
I’ve had conversations with classical guitar players on this subject before.
I want to stress now that I have the utmost respect for the skills, knowledge and tonal awareness of classical players. Beyond that, they have a long pedagogical tradition developed over hundreds of years which is incredibly robust and productive. I would not argue with that tradition in any aspect regarding the classical guitar.
It has often been suggested to me that electric guitar players should simply do as classical guitarists do. This ignores the fact that the electric guitar is a very different instrument, which produces sound in a completely different manner. The electric guitar is not an acoustic instrument, and it simply does not produce tone in the same way as a classical guitar.
Further, one of the primary aims of classical guitar technique is that it allows polyphony. The playing postures, fretting postures, fretting techniques and picking methods of the classical guitar are designed with this aim in mind. One of the primary aims of electric guitar technique is precisely the opposite; electric guitar technique for single-note lead playing should prevent polyphony and ensure monophony. As such, the optimal playing postures, fretting postures, fretting techniques and picking methods for the electric guitar are necessarily distinct from those for the classical guitar. Further, there are techniques for the electric guitar which simply do not apply to the electric guitar and vice-versa.
I absolutely believe that the most knowledgeable players on the subject on tone production as it pertains to the electric guitar are, unsurprisingly, electric guitar players. Specifically, the most knowledgeable players on the subject of legato as it pertains to the electric guitar are electric guitar players with that specialty.
Unlike the classical guitar tradition which has codified its methods over centuries of academic tradition, the electric guitar is a relatively recent invention. The methods used by the most accomplished electric guitar players are largely undocumented in comparison, and the methods of tone production which are specific to the electric guitar is a subject with essentially no literature.
I assure you that I have carefully studied the classical method of legato. With all due respect to the classical guitar community and their fabulous tradition, I do not accept their methods as optimal for the electric guitar.
I’ve written extensively on the particular matter of descending hammers on this forum, with particular emphasis on filling the “gaps”
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Thanks for the response Tom. All good points. I do have some follow up questions for you.
What was the outcome of these conversations? Did they agree with you? Were these players also well versed in electric guitar styles? I feel most classical guitarists tend to isolate themselves. To be really good at it requires almost total dedication. I think the length of time I’ve spent in both realms sort of uniquely qualifies me to have a perspective most guitarists don’t have.
I envision electric and classical guitars as different instruments too, but I think most guitarists could use a healthy dose of raw tone production as per classical guitar tradition. I don’t think the instruments should be approached identically, but where there is room or opportunity, I think we should be open to seeing what’s common between the 2 and applying what we can.
What does ‘optimal’ mean in this context though? Tone-specific? Does the classical way of slurring present a ceiling in speed that one can only achieve when using a more modern electric guitar approach?
In some instances, yes I believe an articulated pull-off creates a speed barrier. Especially with something like the trill that should be as fast and light as possible, I get much better results with a hammer-liftoff technique, than a hammer-pulloff motion. This of course is NOT true on an acoustic guitar, where there’s a real sacrifice of dynamic and rhythmic energy by not using the pull-off.
The electric guitar with gain/compression allows for techniques that aren’t possible on acoustic: hammers from nowhere, tapping, pick harmonics - All of the Van Halen innovations work in the context of a playing technique that allow for extreme sensitivity to a much lighter touch than is possible acoustically.
Again, I’m not saying that classical guitar technique is “wrong” on the electric, just that it’s optimized for a different instrument. Regarding pull-offs specifically, it’s just another tonal option to use more or less articulation in the legato sound.
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Quite varied. Some maintain the superiority of the classical methods for all applications, with very little argument beyond “we’ve done it this way for hundreds of years, it must be correct.” Others are much more receptive and interested in discussion, and have come to respect that the electric guitar is very much it’s own instrument and is, in many instances, unsuited to the methods of classical guitar.
The best classical players I’ve spoken to play classical guitar exclusively. I have incredible respect for their discipline and dedication.
I think some exposure to the classical tradition is beneficial, with the understanding that it is not the final word for the electric guitar. There are certainly insights which are transferable to the electric guitar. Where they are not transferable, understanding why they are not, and how we may use that knowledge to improve our electric guitar technique is itself valuable.
Yes to both.
The classical method requires “loading” for the lower fretted note for the pull-off (see my posts in the Holdsworth thread), which is a more expensive action for the fretting hand than a direct hammer.
Further, synchronization with pull-offs can be problematic at high speeds, as it is the pull with the higher finger which should be the temporal “landmark,” rather than the fretting action as in the case of an ascending hammer. With descending hammers, the fretting action is the temporal landmark for synchronization.
As it pertains to tone production, hammers produce a distinctive tone. It is thinner and more reed-like tone than the tone achieve with a pull-off. This tonal quality can be heard in Allan Holdsworth’s playing, aswell as Brett Garsed’s. It’s also a distinctive quality of the sound of many two-handed tappers, such as TJ Helmerich and Stanley Jordan.
Hammers are a necessity as we cannot ascend with pull-offs. Descending with hammers allows this reed-like tonal quality to be maintained and allows for uniformity.
Even when perfectly executed, a pull-off involves a slight bending of the string before the finger releases the string. This is a useful articulation, and pull-offs are certainly a valuable action for articulation. However, this slight bending action results in a slight “meowing” quality to the lower note. This may, or may not be desirable.
We also must remember than the electric guitar simply does not share the same projection concerns of an acoustic instrument, and we may use our amplifiers to do the heavy lifting for us, but this involves harmonic distortion, the precise behaviors of which depend on the level of the input signal.
As the maximum volume of a hammer is significantly below what can be achieved with a pull-off, the increased projection of the pull-off alters how frequencies are affected by the non-linear qualities of the amplifier. Depending on the amplifier and how it is set, the change can be quite drastic.
The “Holdsworthian” legato tone involves many parallel delay lines to achieve it’s distinctive “liquid” quality. Typically, between four and eight delay lines, each with several repeats. Any percussive action can result in a sound more reminiscent of machine-gun fire than of classical guitar playing.
Finally, I’d like to again stress that descending hammers are just one component of electric legato technique, just as ascending hammers, conventional pull-offs, “lift-offs” and picking are. Legato is about how those ingredients are combined. The descending hammer has utility beyond legato, for example to produce a portato sound.
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Again, all excellent points @Tom_Gilroy
I’d hope to never be one of ‘those guys’. My main point is I’d love to see an elite electric guitarist perform the slurs like a classical guitarist (where possible) so we get a fair comparison. Are you aware of any elite electric players who demonstrate this? Or maybe the (valid) argument is “there are none, because none of them think it’s a viable way to do it on electric”. Just interested if you know of anyone
Then any argument I have advocating this should at least be ‘tried’ falls apart at this point then. Maybe I should put parameters around my suggestion that ‘most’ electric guitarists should try this at normal-fast speeds. Sort of like Troy advocates for small pick movements: at the highest speeds, probably required. At ‘normal-fast’, movements can be bigger.
For both of these, I will admit I had not considered this. To me, thinner equals bad, only for the sake of taste. I like a thick full sound. It’s just personal so I don’t expect everyone to share that view. That should in no way mean others should exclude it from their tonal palette. If that is indeed the sound they are going for, then all hammers is indeed the technique to use.
Very interesting, and also something I never really considered. I’ve always used pretty heavy strings, so I don’t think this happened in my own playing. A lot of legato guys use lighter strings though. No way to get around the micro bends there and as you say, this may not be desirable in all situations.
I think you misspelled ‘potato’. Just kidding
Seriously, thanks for all of your viewpoints. Same to @LuckyMojo and @aelazary. You’ve each presented some things I hadn’t considered and I’ll gladly budge on the hard stance I initially presented. Hopefully, anyone reading this will give my opinions the same fair chance. I still hold the position that normal-fast legato playing done in the classical way produces a nice even result on the electric. I haven’t seen anyone do this, at least with any consistency, and I’d like to I think the results would be good. I’ve been too excited since finding CtC to get my picking where I’d always wanted it since I now know what I’ve been doing wrong with my right hand all these years. Maybe when I get that where I want it, I’ll try really pursuing some legato stuff done the classical way.
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Nah, not good at all
I’ll address more of your reply in a little while.
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They overdramatize it ) Basic acoustic techinque as we know it now is not as old (the same is true for the very shape and construction of guitar). Basically most important pivot points for technical stuff was flamenco (XIX century) and Segovia (XX century).
Not really. Depends on your gear. When I tried to write a VST plugin imitating acoustic guitar, I had to do some research. Acoustic guitar has large decrement factor which ‘compresses’ the sound for our ears, while electric guitar even with clean tone emphasize differences in volume which you wouldn’t notice on an acoustic. So, if you want even tone you have to use more gain, though it may sound counterintuitive (since we moving away from clean AKA ‘pseudo-acoustic’ sound).
From my estimation, you don’t seem the type.
Hopefully the video of Richie Kotzen I posted is a good example of pull-off technique in a rock context. I’m aware it’s not exactly classical pull-off technique, but it’s as close as you can really get playing through a screaming 100W amplifier.
Allan Holdsworth’s early playing emphasized pull-offs much more than his later work. The solo in this video with soft machine is a nice example. Keep in mind, this was 1974.
I find it fascinating to study how Allan continued to develop his technique as he developed his later tone. His works with Jean Luc Ponty and Tony Williams are also worth studying.
As a final example, I know Guthrie Govan is a big proponent of trying to project with pull-offs, and I’ve certainly seen video where he teaches pull-offs very similar to how they are taught in Pumping Nylon.
From what I’ve learned, most everything falls apart by that point. Discovering what does not, and understanding why it does not has been a major turning point for me.
I like a wide variety of tones. For me, thinner is neither better nor worse.
Light strings make it significantly easier to impart energy to the strings with the fretting fingers. Greater effect with less effort. You have to develop the right touch if using light strings, however.
As an Irishman, this surely destroys all my credibility.
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Wow, very nice Montreal Jazz Festival video, Tom! Curses upon the editors of that, or whoever is responsible for changing the camera at 2:04 when he really got cranking haha. Alan was truly an amazing musician.
That Richie Kotzen video was cool too. I’ve heard the name but never investigated his playing. You’re right, that’s a good enough representation for me of the classical mechanics on the slurs. I like it.
Here’s my favorite legato guy, Rick Graham (can’t deny that I partialy watch his videos because of his british accent )
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Wait a second, 90s kid checking in here, wasn’t he in f’in Poison?!? Damn.
Also, great discussion here. I’ve enjoyed reading it. For what little it’s worth, as a guy who plays a lot of legato but not nearly at the level of the guys being tossed around here, my note articulation only really started to come together when I began practicing it unplugged, and while I have zero knowledge of the classical tradition I think a lot o that was becoming aware that you need to utiise the “snap” of the finger pulling away from the string to get a good, clean, defined articulation. I think that’s what you guys are talking about with a classical style pull-off? For added context, I don’t really play with a ton of gain for a “shred” guy.
Hey man. I would say it’s more pulling downward than away. I linked a video in this post of Scott Tennant demonstrating it. But yeah you are on point with the defined articulation. 
Watcvhing myself do it… Yeah, I think I do pull downwards, and that was just poorly chosen.
Anyway, don’t mind me - you two keep going, I’ll keep reading.
Lol hopefully it’s over. I’ve said everything I can think of on the matter, tried as hard as I could to see alternate perspectives and learned some cool things in the process.
And good catch on Ritchie Kotzen from Poison lol! I’ve got to say I’ve heard the name but never looked him up. I am impressed!
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