Descending Hammer Ons

Not really. Depends on your gear. When I tried to write a VST plugin imitating acoustic guitar, I had to do some research. Acoustic guitar has large decrement factor which ‘compresses’ the sound for our ears, while electric guitar even with clean tone emphasize differences in volume which you wouldn’t notice on an acoustic. So, if you want even tone you have to use more gain, though it may sound counterintuitive (since we moving away from clean AKA ‘pseudo-acoustic’ sound).

From my estimation, you don’t seem the type.

Hopefully the video of Richie Kotzen I posted is a good example of pull-off technique in a rock context. I’m aware it’s not exactly classical pull-off technique, but it’s as close as you can really get playing through a screaming 100W amplifier.

Allan Holdsworth’s early playing emphasized pull-offs much more than his later work. The solo in this video with soft machine is a nice example. Keep in mind, this was 1974.

I find it fascinating to study how Allan continued to develop his technique as he developed his later tone. His works with Jean Luc Ponty and Tony Williams are also worth studying.

As a final example, I know Guthrie Govan is a big proponent of trying to project with pull-offs, and I’ve certainly seen video where he teaches pull-offs very similar to how they are taught in Pumping Nylon.

From what I’ve learned, most everything falls apart by that point. Discovering what does not, and understanding why it does not has been a major turning point for me.

I like a wide variety of tones. For me, thinner is neither better nor worse.

Light strings make it significantly easier to impart energy to the strings with the fretting fingers. Greater effect with less effort. You have to develop the right touch if using light strings, however.

As an Irishman, this surely destroys all my credibility.

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Wow, very nice Montreal Jazz Festival video, Tom! Curses upon the editors of that, or whoever is responsible for changing the camera at 2:04 when he really got cranking haha. Alan was truly an amazing musician.

That Richie Kotzen video was cool too. I’ve heard the name but never investigated his playing. You’re right, that’s a good enough representation for me of the classical mechanics on the slurs. I like it.

Here’s my favorite legato guy, Rick Graham (can’t deny that I partialy watch his videos because of his british accent :slight_smile:)

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Wait a second, 90s kid checking in here, wasn’t he in f’in Poison?!? Damn.

Also, great discussion here. I’ve enjoyed reading it. For what little it’s worth, as a guy who plays a lot of legato but not nearly at the level of the guys being tossed around here, my note articulation only really started to come together when I began practicing it unplugged, and while I have zero knowledge of the classical tradition I think a lot o that was becoming aware that you need to utiise the “snap” of the finger pulling away from the string to get a good, clean, defined articulation. I think that’s what you guys are talking about with a classical style pull-off? For added context, I don’t really play with a ton of gain for a “shred” guy.

Hey man. I would say it’s more pulling downward than away. I linked a video in this post of Scott Tennant demonstrating it. But yeah you are on point with the defined articulation. :+1:

Watcvhing myself do it… Yeah, I think I do pull downwards, and that was just poorly chosen.

Anyway, don’t mind me - you two keep going, I’ll keep reading. :+1:

Lol hopefully it’s over. I’ve said everything I can think of on the matter, tried as hard as I could to see alternate perspectives and learned some cool things in the process.

And good catch on Ritchie Kotzen from Poison lol! I’ve got to say I’ve heard the name but never looked him up. I am impressed!

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What have you done! Now I want to buy an acoustic… )) despite the fact that I haven’t played it for years
Though I want a piano also, but guitar is cheaper )

Nostalgy… my big brother played a guitar, I played a piano. But when he wasn’t at home I ‘stole’ his guitar and played… well, I tried at least ) First I played it horizontally… I mean, the guitar was lying on the floor and I was pressing frets and plucking strings. Well, what do expect from a pianist? ))

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For a time, yes. He also developed into an excellent singer and songwriter later in his career, with a voice reminiscent of Chris Cornell.

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What? I’ve got to check this out. I like good singers almost as much as I like good guitarists, and Chris Cornell is at the top of my list. I’m learning some good new things today!

Recently he was in a trio with Billy Sheehan and Mike Portnoy, called the Winery Dogs. Awesome singer, awesome band!

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Oh, a thread about proper legato technique!

Grabs popcorn

Oh…wait…I work as moderator now!

Drops popcorn, starts sweating

Jokes aside you all actually did a great job with this discussion, thank you :slight_smile:

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It’s a breath of fresh air in contrast to other internet forums that people can have a detailed and informative debate about something with no obvious correct answer on here, rather than the usual “Everyone becomes increasingly aggravated with that one guy who continually asserts that the sky is actually down”

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That’s what I like about this forum. People here are openminded and are always open for a dsicussion.

Happy to have started all this :grin:

Hey @carranoj25 Just realizing, even though I strove to make sure my intent in the discussion was civil but hopefully thought provoking, that I took things in a turn that diverged from your question. Sorry about that, bad manners on my part there.

Was there enough in responses, either to your initial question, or the twist I threw in (and responses to me) that get you what you needed for how you can move forward with descending hammers? Clearly we’ve got some members who are pretty knowledgeable on the topic. I want to make sure we get you what you needed, and hope I didn’t get in the way of that!

Hell yeah mate. I just got to up my legato game overall. it really seems like all the pros use a hammer on or pulloff here or there to seriously up their playing

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Well, to give tommo something to do:

HOs as well as POs are both wrong no matter which way they are executed, because they are not picked!

At least that is what I was taught in the 90s :grin:

Thomas

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Sorry to beat a dead horse, but re-reading this brought up an important point to consider. I’ve played piano for many years, and one of the biggest challenges on the instrument is the concept of legato. It’s an ideal that every historic keyboardist-composer from Bach to Chopin to Rachmaninoff has pursued in their playing and composition, and discussed with their students.

The fact is that the piano is a struck percussion instrument (like a dulcimer). The tone is produced by a soft felt hammer striking a string. There is literally no possible way to create a true legato slur from one note to another, each tone has a discrete attack. So the entire history of legato piano technique for at least 3 centuries is an art of illusion.

Pianists are trained to give this illusion of legato through overlapping tones. The key is depressed and held while the next key is played, there’s a brief moment of overlap where both tones are mixed, and then the first key is released. This chain continues for all the tones under a legato slur. The ear doesn’t perceive the overlapping “mixed” tones, especially at speed (otherwise a major scale would sound like a bunch of major/minor 2nd clusters). The listener only hears that the notes are smoothly connected.

Now, there is not a direct analogy to the technique Harrison is using here. We can’t have overlapping tones on a single string on the guitar. However the concept of creating an illusion to the ear is important here. In descending hammers, the listener really cannot perceive a microsecond gap between the release of the higher tone and hammered lower tone. The ear only hears the sequence of tones with the same tonal attack of the hammered tone. The fact that it’s not mechanically a “perfect legato” has less importance then the effect of the illusion of legato.