Difficulty descending vs ascending 2nps

Technique Critique
#1

Hi there,
I have been having some difficulty in playing descending 2nps, whereas, so far, I have had less problems playing 2nps ascending.

Here are the videos:

Normal speed:

Slo-mo (sorry its a bit long):

I can tell that something feels different between ascending and descending that makes descending seem more difficult, however I am not sure what is causing it.

Edit: This only seems to occur with 2nps, as I haven’t seem the same issue with 4nps or 6nps so far

Please let me know how I can improve :slight_smile:

Thank you!

#2

I am the most ignorant person here, but I have a few questions that will encourage more talented people comment: Are you a USX player? When you descend, do you clearly escape, or is it somewhat like sweeping? And finally, do you view yourself as having downward pick slant?

#3

Not ‘naturally’, but its what i’m currently working on - a wrist-forearm usx motion :slight_smile:

Not sure, I think I do on ascending, but i’m not so sure about descending. It doesn’t feel like sweeping, and I’ve looked at the videos I have taken, and i’m not too sure. It feels a bit like the motion could be flattening out more with descending.

I think so! Although please feel free to correct me if the footage suggests otherwise :slight_smile:

1 Like
#4

Hey! Sounds awesome! I’ll chime in here - I kind of go through something similar, except the opposite - Ascending lines are occasionally problematic. I have spent a lot of time of late really getting “even number of notes” lines down, and found that 6nps were easiest, 4nps slightly more difficult, and then 2nps almost tragically difficult. I ended up settling on the fact that the issue wasn’t pick escape, but tracking and for me, the best practice method was to come up with a variety of 2nps chunks. It worked, I can smash out even number of notes stuff in 6nps, 4nps, and 2nps pretty easily.

Here’s what I did:

-x-x----------
--------x-x—

--------x-x–
–x-x--------

–x–x--------------------
-----------x-x------------
-------------------x-x----

---------------------x–x----
------------x–x-------------
—x–x----------------------

I hope that helps!

4 Likes
#5

Thanks for the advice @Scottulus :slight_smile:

I think you could be right about tracking being more problematic than escape motion, as the tracking between ascending and descending feel wildly different for me at the moment.

Was there anything in particular that made tracking in both directions click for you, or was it more of a trial and error process?

Thank you!

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#6

Well, for me, I had a very distinct advantage in that I was being coached by Tom Gilroy at the time - so I could ask questions, and share video and thusly really streamline the “trial and error” aspect of it. Make no mistake, that’s a huge part of it but it boiled down to this;

  1. Even number of notes per string works with every motion.
  2. Practice at a tempo that pushes my abilities; even if it’s messy. Refinement can come later.

So basically, I had to trust that my new-found motion would work for both ascending and descending, and basically find out what tempo it fell apart at; for me it was 16ths @ 126. Not sure why, but I could blaze through descending no sweat, ascending seemed not so great.

So I’d practice for 1 week at 3 tempos 120 - 126 - 132, and try to get it as clean as possible. And this is just percussive notes mind you, no music - just “rhythmic 2nps thwaps”. I’d spend oh, 5 minutes on it and then I’d turn the metronome off and then go blazing fast on just 2 string groupings. Then 3 strings groupings. then 6 strings ascending and descending. 10 minutes tops. Then I’d do something fun, you know - make up a riff, learn a thing, improv with the looper, sight-read etc etc. Then I’d insert another 15min focused practice session in there.

Really, the metronome is just there for measurement purposes. Make sure that I am able to connect my internal time with it and all that good stuff.

There’s more to it than just that, but that’s the gist of what I did. Now, getting that “a-ha” moment to figure out what to do, how to do it, and understand what I was looking for well… that came with quite a bit of discussion with @Tom_Gilroy. Insightful fellow! He really helped me out a lot, and trust me bro - if I can do it, ANYBODY can! hahaha I am like one of those confused gorillas in the zoo trying to decide whether or not the long grass or the short grass is more entertaining… :grinning:

I hope that helps!

4 Likes
#7

For all this stuff were you starting on an upstroke? I’m wondering if there is some aspect of this that makes the tracking easier in the direction of the pick stroke that plays the downbeat. Like if that accenting creates some momentum or something. I haven’t done much with DSX starting on an upstroke but I have done a good bit of USX type of 2nps and I can agree with @User-001 that ascending seemed more natural. I always chalked it up to gravity since you can easily let the hand just “fall” to the next string. To descend (in that context) it feels like you have to sort of drag the arm upward so I had this feeling of fighting gravity. But your report makes me wonder if it’s that momentum thing instead.

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#8

Yeah, all of my even nps stuff starts on an upstroke, the 4nps and 6 nps stuff wasn’t too bad, but definitely more prone to a hiccup when ascending - it took a few months to iron out and definitely feels like a momentum thing - you know? It’s like when I am descending the hand just sort of follows the pick stroke, but ascending it was like I had to kind of teach my brain to not be so lazy and actually associate a tracking (ummm position shift?) in the right hand. I’m still figuring it out hahaha

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#9

I also start even-numbered things with an upstroke/use DSX 99% of the time, and descending definitely feels smoother to me.

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Descending is far easier and faster than ascending
#10

Really interesting you’ve both had this experience, I always found ascending way harder for both my USX and DSX playing!

How long have you been working on this stuff @User-001?

I went through a period recently where I was really struggling with DSX pentatonics so I left it for a little while to pursue DBX and after coming back to it recently it all seems to just work now. Not sure how useful that is for any type of advice but maybe working on other things might subconsciously help grow your comfortability with the motion :slight_smile:

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#11

Interesting. Could just be a familiarity thing. The whole reason I even messed with USX was for EJ phrases and that’s the majority of what I played. He tends to not play “straight across the strings” in either direction. Just these spans of like 3 strings at a time and then a direction change. Still, I noticed the ascending stuff came more naturally

#12

Probably at least a month or so now :slight_smile:

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#13

Once I knuckled down and got busy with my chores, it took me about a month to get it pretty quick and then over the course of about 3-4 months it got more refined, which of course is ongoing. I seem to take forever to get warm and fuzzy with things, so I bet you get it faster!

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