And this one around the 9:00 mark. It is a signature Pat Metheney lick who plays this with a hammer-on from nowhere on the A string.
Martin alternate picks this. D string-Down G string-up D string-Down A string-up
Again super clean without any hitting strings that should not be hit.
This one looks easy but is realy difficult!
I said to START with lol
I just started looking at the glass prison diminished shape. Pretty basic for what it is I guess.
Its funny because I have previously looked at the Joe Stump and also Chris Brooks (or Yngwie) arpeggio stuff and for sweeping most of them recommend to start the lowest string with a downstroke even when coming back down with all upstrokesâŚfor example:
e-------13â10------------
b------------------12-------
g-------------------------13
if one were to play that with sweeping, most would recommend U P U D. I have been loath to try to do that D on that bottom note because it just feels awkward and easier to do U then just switch to D on the B string. But if I am going to start to work on crosspicking arps then I may as well do that same sweep one as most recommend.
But if one wanted dead simple wouldnt we just start with this?:
e-----13â10-------10
b----------------12----- D U D U etc?
Haha, sorry! It Is what working on now.
Yeah that would be a great one to start with and then make a six note pattern of it: 13 10 12 13 12 10 and try ttrack with the shoulder ( i said ellbow earkier but i mean shoulder, will correct that)
If i had to play your example with sweeping it would be:
D P U U that is pretty easy even D U U U is easy to do pretty fast.
well point being when u extend it to 4 or 5 strings and you are going to loop it up and down, they almost all suggest just starting with with a D on the bottom string as opposed to going U all the way descending.
Like this:
eâ10------------------------------------10
b--------10------------------------10-------
g--------------10----------10---------------
d---------------------12---------------------
most would recommend U U U D D D D, as opposed to U U U U D D D
I was just saying, I never liked that outside change at the bottom so the few times I did these it would be U U U U D D D etc. But if I am going to learn crosspicking then this simple outside change at the bottom of this pattern should be childs play
With crosspicking i would do: D U D U D U
For me a downbeat is always a down stroke
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Bill, what youâve written here is an object description of how mechanical learning works. You tried something new, it worked, and you knew it worked because it was fast immediately. There was no working up to speed. There was just backing off and cleaning it up, then trying again on a new phrase, and continuing to mix and match those phrases and speeds as accuracy improved.
I know weâve been around this semantic circle a bunch of times now, but when I say I donât think speed is built or worked up to, Bill has described, probably better than I have, a textbook example of what I mean by that. If youâre trying to go fast, and itâs not working, then you have to change something and try again. Eventually it will click when you do it correctly, and you will know because it will be fast and it will feel effortless. Every technique breakthrough Iâve ever made has worked this way.
@Andjoy it is a lot like trying to learn to raise one eyebrow, and it is an analogy I like to use when describing skill acquisition. This is something I taught myself later in life, mostly for fun, because I could never do it. It is not dependent on genetics or ability, because like guitar playing, I didnât have âeyebrowâ genetics either! Itâs a matter of repeat tries until you figure it out the coordination.
âFake it til you make itâ is a sentiment that has been expressed before on threads like this. I agree completely. Itâs a great way to describe this process. The irony is that the player who practices by âfaking itâ is actually playing more realistically than the player who goes slowly and accurately, because the âfakeâ movements are more similar to the smooth, connected motions performed by experts. Thatâs why the âfakingâ actually works.
Keep faking it!
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Troy has 2 vids on 2 different methods. The wrist only, and the wrist forearm. So you can also add the M. Miller vid for adding the finger.
One thing Iâd recommend is getting a nice double-escaped tremolo first. I actually didnât even use it for 1nps stuff untill after about 6-8 months after starting down the rabbit hole. The problem with X-picking, is itâs potentially very easy to learn wrong, so make sure you have a nice, smooth, non-bouncy foundation first.
@Troy, yes, as with the eyebrow thing, you have to figure out how to move certain muscles; find them with your brain, make the connection, and then practice and practiceâŚ
For Martin this thumb/finger motion was normal from the beginning.
I realy have to focus on this and find a way to get the motion going on and make it consitent and smooth.
By faking you mean, just go for it although you are not doing it clean yet?
I think a measure of reason has to be employed of course. I think we can âfake itâ IF we are in some sort of striking range of whatever technique it is
but something like complex sweep patterns would just be a total mess the first time a novice player tried them. That person indeed would probably have to âwork it up to speedâ at least to some degree to get the motor patterns even partially grooved
but on the âfake itâ side there is also that point where one has to âlet goâ and just try the thing
I really donât see any evidence that some motions are ânaturalâ for some people. In Martinâs case it took several years of trying to get this. This was what he told us in our original interview. Itâs also about the same amount of time Michael Angelo Batio explained that he worked on his technique. Neither player remembers exactly what they did during this time because it happened when they were teenagers and they werenât really paying attention.
I suspect that if you go back in time with your DeLorean time machine and watch all these great players, you will see something very similar to what @Bill_hall has described: a period of trying random things to find a motion that works, then a moment of rapid success when a motion is discovered, then a long period of cleaning it up. The reason why different players end up with different techniques probably has more to do with the initial period of randomized trial and error, and less to do with what is ânaturalâ. That is what the conversations weâve done with great players suggest.
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That is more what i mean with ânormal from the beginningâ He found this motion at a young age (teenager) and it therefore became normal and easy for the brain doing this.
I never used this motion and at my age (57) learning this is much harder.
Maybe i never learn to use it the way Martin does, but for now i keep on trying till i get it because it looks so effortless and is so clean, no streghth is used at all, just super relaxed.
Also i like the sound very much Martin gets holding the pick the way he does. It gives a very smooth sound because he is holding it loose, from what i can tell when watching the vids.
Thx a lot for all the input Troy!
I also used M. Miller as my prototype. I watched that video of M. Miller as the âterminatorâ so many times, I lost track. And it definitely helped point me in the right direction, but at the same time, most of my improvements have just been sorta random. When I find something that feels and sounds right⌠I try and exploit it.
While I think there are certain things that require you be really young to learn, I think changing your guitar form can be done at almost any age. My teen-age years were really unproductive for guitar, but now that Iâm in my 40s, I am improving quite a bit. While I will never be a âhyper-pickerâ, at least I feel like I can finally play âmostâ music now.
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dude Im 51 and have gained more in the last 4 years than ever. Believe it or not, since starting this thread I have done stuff I never thought id do
So the premise of the thread isnt really correct. Im ALREADY âfastâ at certain things.
Now its more like âcan I actually learn that thing I just didâ. The flip side of the âfake itâ thing is that you can pull stuff off or get close to it but then can u learn it? or will it be âyou ought to hear this lick I pulled that one timeâ
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Thanks, Troy for thinking about all this stuff and being curious! 
Looking back at that period I can remember trying to play some of the faster lines that Yngwie played on the first Alcatrazz album and they sounded like Yngwie if he played at less than half speed when I played them, lol. And then when I tried something different in my bedroom that night and it clicked it was amazing to me.! I can even remember grabbing my tape recorder and recording some of the licks I was playing. When I was listening back I remember thinking to myself that âit canât be this easyâŚI have to be cheating?â lol!
It wasnât totally down for me right awayâŚI had to learn how to play things in that picking position like songs and licks that I had been playing and clean it up some, but the seed was there for me to play the things I that had been wanting to play. I had found a way for myself that I could play faster lines through this new way of doing my mechanics. If I had never tried something different that one evening of playingâŚI know I would have stayed in the same place I had been inâŚforever.
For me faking it sort of means that you just try different things without putting a bunch of thought into how you are doing it mechanicallyâŚyou just sort of try and do it or imitate what you want to do and see what happens. I wanted to pick fastâŚso that night when I put my fingers in the guitar body and tried to pick fast my mechanics changed from wrist to more elbowâŚbut I wasnât trying pick more from the elbow, I was just trying to pick fast and the elbow let me do it. I think that is why so many great players are not even aware how they are doing thingsâŚthey just sort of did it and it felt right and they just stuck to that way of doing it for them.
I think that this could apply to so many things. Like say you can pick fast on one string but you are having trouble switching to a next string and keeping the run goingâŚyou could apply all the amazing pickslanting discoveries that Troy has made and apply them to your playingâŚwhile you are playing at fast speeds! You could just try and change the pick slant at fast speeds and see how it feels. Sort of fake that you can already do it if that makes sense and it might just be that you can do it, lol! The exciting thing is that I think we all can do these things for the most partâŚit is just finding our way of doing them. What style of music and what type of things you want to play will play a big part in how your technique will develop, but that we can all tap into these different things is so inspiring to me!
This site and forum is a goldmine for all of us who what to play all the things we have always wanted. Thanks so much to Troy, Brendan and all of you on here. It is so much fun to come on here everyday and see all the amazing information being talked about and being shared by everyone on here! Thanks, everybody! I love this stuff!
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