Do your forearm wiggle during wrist picking?

I think that’s firmly in the category of reflecting more on them than it does on you.

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Thanks for the kind words, but I think it’s time I finally came clean. I’ve been found out, I really am just a “hack” spouting “pseudo-intellectual drivel” in an attempt to “piggyback off of @Troy 's successes”.

No you see, none of that actually counts for anything. Nothing I say can actually be helpful or meaningful feedback, it’s all just an attempt to use complicated jargon I “don’t understand” to “get attention”. That, sweet, sweet attention from a dozen or so guitar nerds on a forum who I’m unlikely to ever meet in real life. Can’t you all understand?! I just couldn’t help myself.

You and my other students can’t attest to my capability or credibility. Nothing you or my other students have seen me do counts because some random forum lurker here hasn’t seen me do it, and I can only continue posting here if I prove myself to him, after all his opinion of me is truth.

Don’t even try to vouch for me guys, everything you’ve seen in lessons was an elaborate fraud using sophisticated deepfake technology. That’s the only possible explanation for what some of you have seen.

I guess it was just too much to hope that people would believe I was honest and well-meaning, that my contributions here have been made as a genuine effort to help people improve and share the findings of twenty years of studying, practicing and analysing guitar technique, or that I have struggle with performance anxiety while playing in some contexts but not in others.

Some folk believe the earth is flat, that 9/11 was an inside job, that the royal family are lizard people, that covid isn’t an illness, moon landing was fake… some people are just idiots.

The comment sections on YouTube, instagram, facebook etc etc are a dumpster fire.

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Just ignore this crap. Anyone fool enough to say this stuff on the forum here will get an earful from me.

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Thanks @Troy. I’m fine with it, it’s just an inevitable consequences of putting myself and my ideas out there. I know plenty of people have tried to throw mud your way too. The sheer level of disrespect towards you is one of the reasons I avoid TGP, by the way.

The only bit that really annoyed me was the accusation that I’ve attempted to piggyback off your work.

I posted here for more than five years without any financial incentive at all. I only started making myself available for teaching because users here kept messaging me, and because it offered me a venue to improve upon my presentation and explanation of concepts after the discussions we had privately.

I’m just a guitar nerd who enjoys nerding out about guitars with other guitar nerds.

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I’ll take that as a compliment. And yes, in this light the stakes for you don’t seem very high :slight_smile: Keep up the great work.

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The idea that you (or anyone) would have to justify why you do guitar teaching is silly enough on the surface that I really wouldn’t spend another moment worrying about it.

Ditto for what random people say on forums. Gear Page is actually a good example of why this typically doesn’t matter. Any time a critical thread pops up over there about things we teach, it’s really only populated by about 5% detractors and about 85% people saying hey that stuff really helped me, and explaining to the detractors why they (almost always) are just misunderstanding something.

You can only worry about the bigger picture of being on the right side of what you do. When you do that, the balance of opinion will always be net-positive, and you won’t have to micromange or even care about the small number of weirdos.

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Echoing what’s been said here @Tom_Gilroy - you know you have plenty of positives in your life and you know what you’re capable of. It’s an unfortunate nature of the beast that there are always detractors and disrespectful people, they usually have something totally unrelated going on or some deep seated insecurity. Putting your material/ideas/performance out there on the internet means losers behind a screen with nothing better to do will sometimes crap on you. You can’t control that, but you can learn to ignore it to one degree or another. Still, that can wear you down over time.

I think there’s also the effect of scale here, once you build an audience that supports you, they tend to drown out the negative weirdos, but it can take time to get there and it can be a real slog at times. I’ll have randos comment on my videos that X was Sloppy or Y is unimpressive, but I’ll get plenty of positive feedback.

I’m someone who is generally able to totally divorce my emotions from my audience if I need to though, healthy or not, I’ve done enough customer support work when I was younger to build up that dissociative mindset. I think it just gets easier with time and exposure.

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Aww man, Tom rocks. He’s helping me sort out all kinds of stuff on guitar that I just couldn’t reach on my own. Sometimes we just need a coach to help out a bit - I know I did/do.

10/10 Tom.

(Just checked again, my forearm doesn’t wiggle during wristpicking. I thought it might have, but it was just a trick of the light…)

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I’m currently in the process of recreating how I learnt my USX wrist+forearm motion with a DSX wrist motion with great progress so far, I’m hoping to post an update on my thread within the next couple of weeks!

My new motion has no forearm wiggle at all, it’s visually very similar to Andy Wood’s motion where the wrist looks like it is flicking outwards diagonally. I’m not seeing this flicking in your playing, it looks more like deviation. My form looks a little more pronated then what you’re using in your video, which I think also helps get rid of forearm motion.

This makes a lot of sense. I was an (inefficient) USX wrist player for 10 years before I discovered my new working motion. When I try to do a purely USX wrist motion I find it really hard not to have my forearm move (even though it is slight and doesn’t help the motion, I think it’s actually a negative thing). I guess I should count myself lucky that I have a different axis to work from without a motion already baked in that doesn’t work interfering!

My advice would be to not brute force any motion, find a way to do it effortlessly - at speed. Aim for picking smoothness but don’t worry about attack, I think focusing on attack (at least in my case) encourages a less efficient technique when the focus should be on speed/smoothness/effortlessness (my attack when learning has actually been quite weak but once the motion became learned I could just do it more aggressively).

I could go on and on but I’ve already said quite a lot. If I can learn DSX wrist and subsequently learn DSX elbow I’m gonna try and condense everything I did down into a new thread :grin:

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It’s not your fault. This forum’s approach does use big anatomical, scientifc, and mathematical jargon. Not something most guitar players could relate to.

:grinning:Naw, totally my fault - I take full responsibility for my understanding or lack thereof. I must say that I’m much further ahead in respect to Troy’s definitions/explanations. Going good!

I just wanted to say thank you - once more - “qwertygitarr” for giving me those few pointers. After 3 years, I have broken the barriers, cracked the code, etc… I use forearm rotatiion with some kind of wrist motion involvement - that’s my technique. I get zero or near-zero tension, precision and speed up to 160 bpm (32nd note “small triplet” groupings) - I can’t play all my sequences at that speed yet (mainly linear ones), but I am getting there. And guess what - for hair metal, I don’t really need to go any faster than that. So, once again - thank you :slight_smile: - below is the link with the mentioned results

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmQqaU4_zxs

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Would love to know the details of your journey, what your plateaus and breakthroughs were, and how you practiced

is this question for me, Austin?

Yes, if you don’t mind sharing

No, not at all. I firmly believe that knowledge should be shared - then, all things being more or less equal, creativity of each individal will matter the most.

Now, where to begin. Well, I played/practiced the guitar for 10 years, from 2000-2010. Then I stopped for reasons I wouldn’t get into. I restarted playing again in mid 2020. That’s when I “discovered” how much everything in guitar world has changed - from pedals, effects, DAW’s … evertything. It was as if I had been living under a rock for the past decade or so.

So I stumbled upon this forum and Grady and qwertygitarr (and I asked him to help me out, and he did, bless him). So, basically I’ve been playing/practicing (this mechanic) for the past 3 years.

The trouble was, when I started playing again, it was just because I wanted to record an album. So, I got a band together and pretty soon I made a bunch of songs. So it was hellish experience, I was under a lot of stress and pressure, because I knew my technique was not stable and consistent and we were about to hit the studio. So, somehow and idea formed in my mind - like - what sequences could I play both in picking and in legato style (should my picking fail due to red light freeze). So I devised 12 sequences which were all grouped in 12 note chunks (twelves- I have a “tutorial” on that on our band’s YT page, you can check it out if you want) - which I could play both in picking and in legato and they would still sound huge and cool.

At first, I wanted, like qwertygitarr, to have my right hand in floating position. But it only worked for ascending sequences and to some extent to one string sequences (which I created by deriving them from and modifying them from either Gilbert or Di Meola) - I specifically wanted to avoid using as many Yngwie’s sequences as possible on my own recordings (in all honesty, Yngwie has only a couple of sequences - Yngwie’s triplets (Jet to jet intro solo), Yngwie’s fours on one string -ascending and descending-, Yngwies fours descending across all strings starting on high E which tends to make your pick entangle if you a) don’t have extreme control over your picking motion b) don’t infuse a few legato trills on few critical spots -which is a huge hassle if you ask me; Yngwie’s fours ascending , starting from low E (think I am a Viking riff), and Trilogy sequence. That’s how many… 4 sequences. Yep, he made a career out of those 4 sequences. BTW. Yngwie’s triplets and fours on one string - those he stole from Uli Roth (Chek out Earthquake, the last 20 seconds, song by Uli Roth), but ok.

Basically I practiced like crazy, every day or every other day (both my solos, which I had to compose because I wasn’t able to improvise because my techniqe wasn’t stable and broken in , so to speak - and my own sequences). So, we went to record the first song “Burn the night”. And I managed to record the solo almost exacltly as wanted it. Turns out, 3 days later - our sound engineer fucked up the mic’ing and the raw recording was shit. So I had to redo the solos for the song. This time, my picking just wouldn’t work. I spent like 5 hours in studio trying to recotd it and failed. So I resorted to playing it legato. Oh, by the way, I kept a studio diary of sorts… I’ll try and find an entry from that day…


I’ll give you the truth

We went into the studio on Feb 13th, 2021 – to record Burn the Night

Dante recorded the drums, but Steve did a take of his own too

I’m not sure whose take was finally chosen and quantized

because neither of them could play to a click (a metronome)

but Steve was closer and had fewer oscillations than Dante

so maybe it was his drums who were quantized and put into a “grid”

and then locked by our producer Wolfy

The following day – Feb 14th, me and Maverick went into the studio

and then Maverick plugged his bass straight into a Neve console

his sound was fantastic

he nailed the song in two takes, I think

he was so full of himself afterwards, and especially after he got

praised for both his playing and the sound by the studio owner Cheda Sr

and then

it was my turn

but,

before we went into the studio, which was around 3 o’clock PM

I had had 30 minutes of sleep and I had listened to some lo-fi smooth jazz

to ease my nerves and calm myself down

it helped me, both that short nap and the jazz

so, let me get back to the story

after Maverick finished his part

he stayed for a while

-while I and Wolfy set up and tried my amp Origin 50c

and while he mic’d it

he used two mics – shure sm57 and some other (unknown to me)

close miking technique

he did all that …in let’s say 15 minutes

I wasn’t very nervous, but I did feel a bit of anxiety

I couldn’t take any medication nor alcohol

‘cause I knew it would slow me down and

I would be unable to play in sync, in tempo

so, Wolfy set it up, while I was trying to muster and dredge all the

self-encouragement I would need to perform

and in the process, I was completely out of focus as to

what was going on around me

namely, I didn’t notice that the sound coming thru

the monitors was plain shit

but, as bad luck would have it – Wolfy had to go ‘cause he had stuff to produce

at his home

so, only me and Cheda Sr and Maverick remained

I recorded rhythm guitars, hard left in two takes, hard right in two takes

and instantly I didn’t like the way they sounded combined

Wolfy had told me that I would have 2 choices – either to play exactly the same

on the left and right channel, or I could do a slight variation on one of the channels

so that’s what I opted for ‘cause I thought it would give it the overall “loose” or “live” feel

but I was wrong

ok, never mind

then, it came to the intro and the solo parts, respectively

my picking wasn’t really up and running by that point

so, I asked Cheda Sr to leave me be (he went off to smoke and drink brandy)

while I started practicing, warming up, unplugged mostly

because as soon as I would roll off volume on my guitar

that same sequences which had come out clean unplugged

sounded mushy, not clean, inarticulate – no matter how hard I tried

so I continued practicing for about an hour or so, alternate picking, everything

then we tried to record it

again and again and again

we even split the solo part into two sections (two different takes)

and finally it sounded …well, passable

but I wasn’t satisfied, at that point I realized that the problem was not in my

playing, but in the sound

so I reduced the amount of Drive on my pedal, by a lot

and then I finally got some articulation and clarity

it must have been around half past 9 pm

when Cheda Jr arrived to relieve his uncle

and he gave me that much needed boost, both in confidence and in spirits

my right hand went loose and somehow left and right hand locked on to each other

in perfect sync

and I started alternate picking everything I could think of…

I went berserk, I was so free, I had been familiar with that feeling

the feeling of absolute freedom on the fretboard

that’s what it’s all about – the ability to play whatever comes to your mind

slow, fast, one note, over a hundred notes…

it was like magic, in a way

he too went bonkers seeing me play that way, live, in person

so we started fooling around, having fun basically, that was the best part of the day

and at some point he suggested that we redo all the lead parts (intro, intro1, solo, outro)

so we did

it took us a while to do it, because I strove for maximum possible perfection

and we did it, and I was beyond tired, mentally and physically

when we packed and got up to the smoking lounge area

where we smoked a few cigarettes and made plans for tomorrow

it was half past midnite when we parted ways

I was hungry and everything, but satisfied, happy even

I went to bed at around 4 am and woke up at 7 am (not tired nor drowsy)

tomorrow, it was Steve’s day to sing

but when they played the track on the monitors

my guitar sounded worse

than two DS-1 cranked and stacked together and played thru plastic computer speakers

yeah, the guitar parts were played almost perfectly

but the sound was beyond horrible

it had all been for nothing

little did I know that I was about to suffer another mental breakdown

because of Steve

Maverick showed up late (he needn’t have come but chose to)

Cheda Jr was at the console again

we used Neumann U87, the best mic really

directly into Neve console, because it sounded better than thru a mic preamp called Avalon (having Steve’s coloratura in mind, of course)

although Steve bought quite a few cans of various beer

and we all drank it

it was, at least for me, very intense situation

Steve would yell at me from the iso booth

he was frothing over some parts I had suggested he tried to sing differently

or more cleanly, etc…

I had to compromise, so during the penultimate chorus there was a place where he should have sung something I arranged specifically for that part to spice it up a bit

but no, he chose to sang that part a few beats later

I couldn’t fight him, I was already a nerve-wrack, so I just let him do it the way he wanted it

and that was that

our former keyboard player kept phoning me and asking about when he was supposed to come and record his parts, so I would tell him “I don’t know, it’s up to Cheda Sr”

but in reality, I knew

I knew that I would have to re-record all the guitars again

in the meantime I spoke with Wolfy about the guitar sound

and he was still in the middle of the production of some French singer

but he gave it a listen and concurred

but he was like “Don’t worry, we’ll find the sound you’re looking for”

so I started poring over the forums, asking people for advice, asked Elmo Karjalainen for help

and he responded kindly, and gave me few pieces of advice on what to do

and how to set the amp up

so I wrote everything down, every possible setting people had recommended me

and then nothing

I called Cheda Jr and asked him when we would be able to set the sound

and re-record the guitars and he told me he couldn’t tell me the exact date

but that it would be “very soon”

and March was approaching

which would put the whole project/band/whatever we were

in top gear

why?

well, the only way we could make this work out

was for the three of us – Dante, Maverick and myself

to go back to AKC during the entire month of March

and have at least 3 rehearsals per week, 2-3 hours a day

…we would only have to rehearse 4 songs, which we had been rehearsing since July

to basically “tighten “ them up

as far as the lead guitar and drums were concerned

but for the past few days Maverick has been evading me, avoiding my texts, calls, etc

and I know that he is not reliable, that’s just how he is and I have made my peace with that

but this was no time to fuck around

I was unemployed, Dante was unemployed, Maverick was unemployed

only Steve had a job, a very good and well-paid job –which also meant that he wouldn’be around too much for our rehearsals

and the money was drying up

now I had the money for only 7 songs

but I still had to buy strings, order them from Thomann, HB ones, the cheapest

so that would cut my budget down to 6 songs

I had nothing to sell

and I prayed my guitar tuners would hold out

because the set cost about 60 euros

I had been looking for a job, but couldn’t find anything within the city area

not even a menial, labor type thing

I could only resort to taxi driving

and probably unskilled construction work (which was well underpaid and totally not worth it)

on the other hand, Maverick and Dante had no such concerns

they weren’t looking for work, don’t ask me why

so they had tons of free time

but despite that, Maverick kept inventing chores (taking care of his 20 plus cats and the recently born son) to make himself look occupied

I don’t get it…

I do know one thing, however,

if we don’t spend the next 30 days

rehearsing those 4 songs

we will not be in good position to record them

one after another

in April

when will Steve sing them? I don’t know, and I don’t care

the important thing is to have the foundation laid down

rhythm and solos

then we would have 5 songs recorded

which would make up one half of the record

then we would have to repeat the process

erase those from our memory

and start anew with the next 5 songs

without Steve, of course, he will be unavailable

and all that – without a keyboard player

for a heavy keyboard-laden songs

that’s the truth

and yes, I am still alone

and totally fucked up

and no – I don’t see how all this

will pan out

I just don’t have any other options" 

Basically it was all ups and downs, mostly downs. If you think the air in Mobile is bad you should see Beijing at 5 am on Monday.

On a serious note, the real breakthru happened during the latter half of October 2023. I had acquired Spark 40 amp like a month before and the sound I made really pushed me into overdrive. I soon, accidentally discovered that if I place my middle finger on the pickguard firmly - I can have perfect control over descending seqences and over one string ones. For the ascending ones, I had to basically brush my middle finger (not firmly plant it on the pickguard) so as not to restrict the motion, the movement - this holds true for “Gilbert lick” as well. So I practiced like a madman for 2 years and 10 months and in the last 2 months (reaching the third year) I made the breakthru. I will record a video about my picking hand and post it on our band/project’s YT channel. For now, you can watch my left hand sequences.

Left hand sequences

Ask me anything else should you find the need.

–UPDATE–
Also, I noticed on Instagram a street player, an Italian called Emanuel Victor or something like that, he plays classical guitar - his right hand mechanic is almost exactly the same as mine.

Links to my right hand picking mechanic:

Right hand picking mechanic explained part 1

Right hand picking mechanic explained part 2

subscribe to my channel, if you wish, cause I do a lot of old-school shred style covers, and I upload pretty reguluarly, either there or on TIktok ( usually on both platforms)

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@TS035 and everyone:
Thanks for sharing!

I reformatted the diary entry for the sake of readability (otherwise the forum post would appear enormous) I did this by putting 3 times the ( ` ) symbol before and after the relevant text:

 ``` diary entry text ```
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thanks Tomo, I didn’t know how to do that :slight_smile:

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Thanks Tommo! Just watched the video of Kim getting to 210 BPM on her second try at tremolo. Incredible stuff, but that why we’re here!

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