Dumb crosspicking question. Stringhopping?

Playing Technique
#21

Definitely thinking out loud here, as I write this… But, maybe another way of thinking about this, is that a 5-string arpeggio is only “hard” to alternate pick if you can’t crosspick, but if you can it shouldn’t really be any harder than a 3-string one (assuming you’ve got the fingering down). So, one could argue (and I’m thinking through this as I type which is why I’m sticking to the passive voice, I’m not quite sure I’m ready to make this claim) that maybe the best way to practice techniques like crosspicking is to apply them to lines that can only be played in that manner, since at that point it becomes really easy to tell if you’re doing it right or doing it wrong. If you can’t play it, you’re doing it wrong and you need to change your approach. If you can, you’re doing it right, and should keep doing it.

Similar Devil’s Advocate sort of post - I switched from a mountain bike to a road bike ages ago, but I spent my teenage years on a mountain bike, and a lot of the guys I ride with these days also mountain bike when they’re not on their road bikes. One thing I remember clearly from my own riding and one thing they definitely tell me today is there are some things that are just not possible to do if you “start slow” and wait until it’s within reach. In particular, things like hitting drops are a great way to kill yourself if you roll up to the edge at a crawl and try to edge over - you’re going to land on your nose. Come in at a decent clip, though, ride up with authority, and send it, and “just whip it off,” and you’re probably going to land it, though. You need some idea of what you should be doing in the air, how you should be approaching, how you should try to land, etc… But you can’t practice that stuff at low speed, so you need to just focus on riding “fast and smooth,” and, well… whip it off.

I can certainly see some aspects of guitar being similar - if nothing else, the feeling of clearing a rock gargen on a mountain bike at a fast, flowing speed, vs. getting bogged down and jostled around and hung up on the rocks and roots at slow speed is an oddly apt analogy for alternate picking.

#22

I use the bike analogy a lot because it’s a thing that most people I think will accept needs to be learned at some kind of realistic speed, for reasons of physics. But in fairness, people have pointed that it may not be an apples to apples comparison, because a picking motion can be done more slowly while a bike jump can’t. Well, maybe! Most of the great players we’ve interviewed can’t replicate their fast form exactly when playing more slowly. Sometimes it’s a little different, sometimes it’s super different. Part of this is probably just what they’ve learned. But part of it probably is also the physics of moving a thing around very fast with muscles exerting realistic levels of force to change direction, and so on.

In either case, I think the idea is that even if you could exactly replicate your best form while playing slowly, it wouldn’t feel the same. And feel is the main thing you are trying to learn. I think the bike example just makes it more obvious. But if you look at everyday activities that don’t seem quite so inertial, there is probably some element of realistic motion speed and muscular force that needs to be present to really recognize when you’re doing something legitimately right.

#23

I honestly think a rock- and root-strewn stretch of singletrack may be a better example. You CAN clear it at slow speed… But it’s a lot less efficient, with a lot of bouncing off things and jostling up and down and getting bounced around a lot. Whereas, at tempo, the bike tends to flow naturally over the top of obstacles, which is a feeling that should feel pretty familiar to every single one of us.

#24

What do folks think about the role of “slow practice” for the fretting hand (eg when fingers are moving rather than static)? Should the same approach to learning apply there, too, where you sort of start out fast-ish and clean it up?

#25

Havent you heard? its officially been ruled obsolete.

We also did away with the bell curve while we were at it. Now anyone can play any lick…just by trying it.

Im calling youtube right now to report Rick Graham for dispensing bad info since in almost every one of his vids he tells people to start slowly and work it up to speed

then of course he says to build speed, play faster. Common sense

#26

I don’t want to speak for anyone, but I think there’s probably a difference between learning a pattern slowly until your hand understands the movement in the broadest sense, and dialing a fast movement in in the way that’s discussed here?

#27

yeah. context. thats why its best to avoid big sweeping statements

of course this kind of semantics word salading is silly but its nothing compared to a singing forum

#28

Speaking personally…

I think it makes more sense for the fretting hand than it does for the picking hand. I’ll I guess add the caveat that I’m not sure this is as true for coordination related stuff as it is for, say, legato patterns… But a legato run is mechanically the same at 16ths at 80bpm as it is at 160. That’s not really the case with your picking hand, where your picking mechanic IS different at lower speeds than it is at higher ones - the whole challenge of changing strings is essentially a non-issue at lower tempos since you can just lift the pick up away from the strings in a mechanically inefficient manner and not really pay for that.

Eh, I don’t really agree. The “problem” with changing strings with fast alternate picking is getting the pick up and over a string while moving to the next one. That doesn’t really exist because at slow speeds almost anything works since losing time for a mechanically inefficient motion isn’t really a concern. You pretty much HAVE to play at tempo before the efficiency in which you’re getting the pick over that obstacle starts to matter. It may be possible to learn something by doing it slowly before you do it quickly, but we’re not talking about terribly complex motions here that you should be able to get up to at least a decent speed pretty much as soon as you realize what they are… and, you’re not really going to have any way to tell if what you’re doing is right until you ARE doing it rapidly.

I think there are definitely things where it makes sense to start slow and build up. I just don’t think the physical process of moving a pick through the strings is one of them. Or, at a minimum, if a pickstroke IS something where there’s an upside to starting slow and gradually going faster, then I’m going to require a pretty compelling argument.

#29

I apologize for the way I’m coming off here. My intent is not to make sweeping, generalized statements simply for the purpose of being a maverick when it comes to this topic. At all. And I never meant to imply you will never practice slowly again. And I apologize for belittling anyone else’s contributions on this topic. I value everyone’s input and the forum has been a source of great learning for me as much as it may have been for everyone else. I hope.

To be clear, you will of course practice slowly at various points. But what I’m suggesting here is that the process likely works the reverse of what we’ve been lead to believe. You learn a motion initially by going for it at natural / realistic speeds, to get a sense of how it’s supposed to work when done correctly, or at least semi-correctly. Then, as you become more physically aware of what it is that is working about those faster attempts, and more able to reproduce that feeling on command, you gradually widen that window of speeds to include slower ones as well as faster ones. It’s not quite “start fast, get slower”. It’s more like “start at a narrow range of mostly fast speeds, and make that range wider over time”.

This is not an observation I’ve arrived at overnight. It’s based on years of meeting with and interviewing great players and researchers, reading some of the more important papers that have come out in motor learning circles, and of course, learning to do these motions myself, mostly from scratch, at a reasonably competent level.

All that being said, I don’t think anything I’m suggesting here is as iconoclastic as it may sound. You yourself at one point guessed that a lot of the players we grew up listening to probably started out “wailing” until it clicked and started sounding good, or something to that effect. That is both insightful and, based on everything we’ve learned, likely to be correct in very broad strokes. Players we have interviewed have said as much, like Andy Wood.

Yes, players have said all sorts of things over the years about what they did to master their technique. But I think it’s unwise to take everything at face value, because a lot of people don’t really remember what they did, or what order they did it in, when they were 13. You tell yourself a story enough times, it becomes true in the re-telling. Do we really believe Al Di Meola when he says it’s impossible to alternate pick an arpeggio? We know he toured with Steve Morse in the early '80’s, when Steve was at the peak of his powers for doing exactly that. We know bluegrass existed for decades before that. Translating from Al-speak, I take this to mean that the alternate approach didn’t work for him, or he prefers his way for some other reason. Which is totally his prerogative.

But if Al literally means it is impossible, obviously he is wrong. And that’s ok. He can be wrong. It doesn’t negate his stature as one of the greats. But time marches on and we learn more about how things work. And we find people doing all sorts of things that seem to contradict common wisdom. Common wisdom is common for a reason.

Just about everything on this web site was either considered wrong, or simply unknown, at some point in the very recent past. I think we’ve put our money where our mouth is. And mainly, that money is based on helping people. If we can’t do that, then we deserve to go out of business. And I mean that. The time for ineffective teaching has passed. If we can’t tell you something that makes you better, then you deserve to spend your cash, and more importantly, your time, with someone else.

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#30

is it all that? life and death? You are convinced that your way is the correct way for everyone. Good. So why would anyone try to make a compelling argument to convince you otherwise?

#31

Because it’s interesting to debate things?

#32

no one is challenging your pedagogy…but any type of broad overstatement will obviously rub some people’s intelligence the wrong way.

Players say all kinds of stuff…some of it is rubbish but some of it is legit. When Vai says he would pick some crazy pattern and start slow with a metronome and gradually work it up over a month(s), I tend to believe him. He seems that type. I sort of doubt he was the only one. Same thing is recommended by many of the guys you have featured in your episodes

Some of those movements at 80 or 100 wont be the same as at 180. Duh. But some will be very similar. As the person speeds it up, he either makes corrections along the way or he tops out. Different strokes for different folks.

Me? I was always too lazy to start slow and work things up to speed over time. Thats a character flaw. I wish it were different. A fast but sloppy player just sounds silly.

Its not that I dont get the argument. Obviously I do. I bet ive learned 4-5 new patterns this past week by just wailing out something, feeling something nice, and then saying “whoa, what was that??” Then I work out what I think I did etc.

So yeah, thats ONE way to do things. But its not the only way. i can promise you all, I cant wail out a 1nps alt picked arp. Simply not happening. Id either totally miss some strings or id revert to sweeping some strings. There will have to be at least SOME motor path grooving at slow speeds to even get into the ballpark

Thanks for the stimulating conversation, peace, JJ

#33

Because we’re all hear to learn. I have my belief, yes, and I have pretty strong, clear reasons for believing what I do. However, if someone were to present me strong, clear evidence that I was mistaken or that the reasons were somehow incorrect, I would absolutely consider that evidence and likely change my beliefs.

Heck, two years ago, if someone had asked me, I’d have been advocating starting slowly and gradually working up to speed, too. This forum convinced me I was wrong, precicely because they DID give me a strong argument that what I had previously believed was incomplete.

As Ralph Waldo Emerson put it, a foolish consistency is the hobgiblin of little minds. When presented with evidence that I’m wrong, I change my beliefs. I have pretty good reasons for believing what I do based solely on the mechanical challenges related to fast alternate picking and how they don’t really become problematic at slower tempos, so the bar is fairly high… But, if you can present a compelling enough argument, then yeah, of course I’m going to hear you out, and you might even convince me.

To me, what this suggests is not that it’s not possible to do, but that whatever you’re doing isn’t crosspicking. In theory, if your pick is following a double-escaped trajectory, then there’s no reason you SHOULDN’T be able to do this, provided your fretting hand can keep up.

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#34

I’m always willing to be wrong, because the sooner I realize this, the less time I spend being wrong. My goal is not pushing “our” pedagogy, it’s pushing the best possible information, no matter where it comes from.

In your case you have a pretty brass tacks question, and I’m sorry again that we’ve derailed into theories. I’m sure we can get you moving forward on this. What grip and picking motion are you using currently, and what phrase or phrases are you working on arpeggio-wise. If you want to throw up a video clip that is probably the picture that’s worth 1000 words.

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#35

well it was just a theoretical question about crosspicking vs stringhopping. Ive barely tried the 1nps stuff. Just a few times. This is why I balk about being able to play it with anything resembling some sort of speed. yeah, after an hour of goofing with it id have some facility, then maybe after 2 days it would start to look smooth.

Id feel silly though if I were grooving something that would top out at 140 or whatever

The whole reason i joined here was to get up to speed on the camera/magnet aspect. As of yet though I dont have anything set up. No smart phone and dont really want one but I may buy one just for the camera aspect if thats the way to go

#36

I think that building Legato technique is very different than picking. Tom Quayle recomendable playing super slow as well because it builds control. They want every note to sound the same: same volume, dynamic, and time feel to create a feeling of consistency.
They do this by focusing on each individual note and playing at super slow tempos (60bpm 8th Notes, etc).

However, I do think that to play faster you need to practice faster and push the technique to see if it is comfortable at those higher tempos.

#37

See, that’s the thing. You start at the target speed. This way there is no worry that you’re wasting your time on a motion that has no legs. I swear, I am not shitting you on this. This is especially true with the 1nps stuff because the slow movements will fool you - you think, oh yeah, I’ve got this. But then it doesn’t go any faster and no amount of woodshedding will make it go faster. This is the mind game it plays on you. Resist the urge to be accurate at first.

Instead, air guitar that MF at whatever your guitar hero speed is, and see if you can hit any of the notes cleanly. Then film it and see what the motions look like. If they resemble the flat curved target motion, then you are on to something. You may be surprised how close you can get by winging it.

This really is the methodology here. The good news is, if it doesn’t work, you’ve wasted a day or a week, and not years.

Re: camera, you don’t need a Magnet, just a cheap tripod and a phone that does 120fps and good light. And I wouldn’t use it all the time - you’re going on smoothness of feel here, so the motion will tell you when it’s correct. But the phone is a great way to 1) force you to stop playing periodically, and 2) observe that it’s really working before you sink time into it. When you just start out, it’s not always obvious what “correct” feels like, and sometimes what feels crazy sloppy to you will actually look better than you think when you observe it. That means you’re getting somewhere.

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#38

Just from my limited experience here. Fretting seemed to benefit a lot from slowing down to a crawl and slowly speeding up. Especially things like fretting arpeggios.

But X-picking was pretty much the opposite for me. I spent about 3-4 weeks just doing something that I could ‘pass off’ as double-escaped, and yet could be done (albeit sloppy) at my goal speed of 200 bpm.

Then I spent the next 2 years figuring out how to make it work, move it around, and clean it up. I am still nowhere near done, but it was definitely a good investment in time.

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#39

You know, this is truer than I think even I realized. I have a bit of a natural arc to my pickstroke and while I’ve been working more on scalar playing lately and going through some of the Antigravity stuff (which has been totally eye-opening), I’ve also occasionally been half-heartedly drilling some of the three string rolls, just getting the feeling down but not really pushing speed or anything.

So, last night, just for kicks I took a 4- and 5-note arpeggio pattern, threw on a metronome, and decided to see, accuracy be damned, just how fast I could get the picking going.

My fretting hand was a total trainwreck, like, calling it a trainwreck is an insult to trainwrecks because I’ve seen trains crash with far more grace and accuracy than my fretting hand last night… But very much to my surprise, the picking wasn’t THAT abysmal all the way up to 180+ bpm, and 16ths on a single string I probably currently top out in the 190-200 range so I was picking single-string arpeggios with passable enough accuracy to get through a dive bar gig provided the patrons had been drinking heavily at damned near my max single speed pace, and the pick was by and large moving across strings the way it should. It SOUNDED like total garbage, but I’ll have to start working on this and see if I can get my fretting hand to keep up.

My poor neighbors, lol.

Added side-benefit - my usual UWPS-based TWPS scale playing felt super-smooth after a couple minutes of this.

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#40

Well, that sounds like me as well. I’d say keep it up. One thing I’d suggest is to do that kinda messy practice with a static fretting hand, at least initially. Later on you can do all the fretting movements as well.