Efficient Digital Cycles

Playing Technique
#56

This thread has really grown legs. I’m delighted with the course of the discussion so far.

Agreed. It strikes me that this is pretty much a rough guide to my fingering preferences, (1 3) as far as possible for for 2 note per string pentatonic lines, and (1 2 4) as far as possible for 3 note per string lines.

@ASTN, I agree. The lateral stretches I can get between my fingers is actually quite wide (as in, a wide angle), but stretching on the guitar is mostly about aligning the hand to take advantage of the frontal stretch.

#57

Agreed. And I was firmly in the “why bother? The fretting hand just sorts itself out” camp at the start of this conversation.

#58

Independance between fingers can only be partly explained by anatomical differences, there is also something happening in the brain. I had a student with focal dystonia so I did some research to understand how it works.

From what I understood :

There is a part of the brain called somatosensory cortex which is responsible of finger coordination, and each digit is controlled by a specific zone. If two of these zones overlap, then we cannot move one finger without moving another one.
People who have focal dystonia and most beginner students have a similar condition with a disorder in the representation of their digits.

Guitar players slowly separate their digital zones by practicing, but from what I know there is no guarantee for everyone to reach the level of total independance. The research on this particular subject is not extensive so it’s not possible to know how much we can separate our digital zones by practicing (and which kind of practice?) and if there are some kind of neurological plateaus we all have, but it would probably affect how much a digital cycle works for someone.

#59

Hi @MartinHamiche. Very interesting post, thank you for sharing.

It would be fascinating a player who feels limited in some way could determine if that limit were primarily neurological or anatomical in origin.

#60

Hey Tom, did you ever start that follow up thread regarding Shawn lanes picking ?

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#61

Hi @carranoj25.

Yes, I posted a thread that was concerned (primarily) with Shawn’s picking technique. That thread is here:

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#62

Playlist of videos I’ve recorded to try to explain these concepts:

15 videos in total.

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#63

Thank for your work Tom! I feel like this thread deserves a clearer title like “the science of fast fretting” or similar - so that the average person can find it easily and you get the visibility you deserve :slight_smile:

#64

Hi @tommo.

Would it perhaps be better to start a new thread with the videos in the OP and referencing this thread? This thread is already very long, and the videos may not be seen by a first time reader. Also, the length may make it seem daunting.

However, I don’t want to clutter up the forum unneccessarily either.

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#65

I think a new show & tell thread is totally fine - you can then reference this thread as the "theory part " that goes with the new videos :slight_smile:

#66

REviving this thread! @Tom_Gilroy question for you regarding this attached tab for a cool country solo. But we see this pattern in tons of other pentatonic stuff.

Im talking specifically the last bar of the solo on page 2 where it walks down the Aminor; the 7-5, 7-5, 7-5-3 part. I can do this fast enough but it always feels a little tricky and im wondering if Im just doing it non-efficiently. How do fast players generally tend to play this? Do they only use two fingers and just slide down the C note on the A string? hit the C on the low E instead? 3 fingers and a pull off? If 3 fingers, which fingers do most fast players typically use? I feel like it’s kind of difficult to go ring index for the 7-5 parts and then instantly have to switch to a three note position for the 7-5-3 on the A string. Any thoughts?

#67

Not Tom, but I’d do it as 3 1, 3 1, 4 2 1, 3 1 - feels smooth. I’d wager most players would shift position on the A string and do it all with 2 fingers, though.

#68

Firstly,

This is a good option. Also a good option to fret the A note on the low E with the 2nd finger.

Eric Johnson would definitely do this. I’d say the most EJish way to do it is

3 1 3 1 3 1 shift 1 3 1

or

3 1 3 1 3p1 shift 1 3 1

Shawn Lane might have done a variation on

3 1 3 1 4 2 1 2 1

most likely with some descending hammers and hammers from nowhere

3 1 3 1 4 h2 h1 h2 h1

The EJ approach is definitely fast enough for the stated tempo (160bpm), and the SL approach has the potential to go much faster.

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#69

When you say shift do you mean just slide the fingers down? I actually tried this with hammers from nowhere last night and it works great.

5-3
5-3
5-3-1 (4 2 1 fingers and all hammers) it works well

It’s weird how descending is different. I’d prob just go the easy way and shift fingers down and just use two fingers, but ascending I think I’d go with three fingers

#70

I don’t know if I have a dystonia thing going on (especially since I don’t seem to experience this same problem in my right hand when I flip my guitar lefty [though overall I’m totally uncoordinated, I’m not saying I can play ambidextrously]), but on double whole step combinations, I tend to play 1-3-4 ascending because my ring finger has a tendency to close down when moving from 2 to 4, which either introduces an unintended new note, or winds up choking the note played by finger 2. This even sometimes introduces problems in half-whole sequences, as those aren’t terribly playable as 1-2-3 in lower positions. I feel like my own vocabulary has unconsciously avoided relying on those patterns, but it seems like it’s made learning the vocabulary of other players incredibly difficult. I don’t know if this an example of finger 3 not having total independence from 2 and 4, or an example of a developed dystonia.

#71

Hi @timehat, I’m not qualified to diagnose dystonia that or to advise you on that.

However, I have seen similar issues which were due to suboptimal positioning or too much exertion while fretting. It’s very possible that this is an issue which you would be able to correct.

#72

Hey, thanks for your response. I’m just going to try to do the agonizing, slow work of undoing what might simply be a habit I’ve fallen into. I can control that ring finger at slow speeds, but if I attempt to relax and play quickly, it’s right back to stomping all over where it doesn’t need to be. I’ve been sitting here for a good 30-45 minutes just going super slow and gradually increasing speed and repetitions, and it seems to be paying some dividends. Funny thing is when I switch to lefty, I simply don’t have this problem at all. Weird

#73

I’ve been considering what you’re saying, and I’m wondering if you possess what I have in my right hand. Does the pinky droop less when you make the rocker symbol like this :metal: than when you make it with your other hand? Does it create a pain down the pinky side of your hand when you do :metal:?

Screenshot 2023-01-16 at 23-22-00 124 Soundslice

Are you able to swing tempo this kind of exercise with those fingers?

If so when you go into the triplet double time try to focus more on hearing the difference between the two boxes. Try to aurally perceive both of them as two separate entities to take your focus off of the fingers. Try to trick your hands by focusing more on the sound, does that help?

#74

I am glad I was refered to this amazing thread by another user. I do have a quesion that Tom_Gilroy might be able to answer, or give his ideas to.

In the very first post, you said

"
A cycle need not carry a specific starting digit, so we have equivalant fretting cycles

(1 2 3) = (2 3 1) = (3 1 2)

and

(3 2 1) = (2 1 3) = (1 3 2)

but

(1 2 3) =/= (1 3 2)

"

I noticed that guitar shredders (apparently SL too?) seem to use the “straight forward cycle” or the “straight backward cycle”, meaning abc or cba, almost exclusively.

I am experimenting with the other possible cycles at the moment and I find them significantly harder to play than the “straight” cycles. Do you have any idea as to why this might be the case, other than lack of talent on my part?

My idea for the relative effortlessness of the forward cycle is that the lower fingers stay on the fretboard relatively long before being moved away from the fretboard. Then again, that doesn´t apply for the backward cycle at all.

Best wishes,

Tobi

#75

I wouldn’t say “lack of talent”. Probably “lack of exposure” is a better explanation. I’d noticed it too in my playing. I chalked it up to familiarity and more ‘mental’. Tom’s concept, I believe is more abstract. Meaning, there should be no more mechanical difficulty to loop 123 123 123 (etc)… than there is to loop 231 231 231(etc).

The missing link is how good our hand sync is. I purposely made an exercise to address this problem and I got good results from it. I’ve shared it on the forum in other threads and others said it helped them, so hopefully it helps you too.

I know @Tom_Gilroy has some, for lack of a better term, “proprietary” rudiments he gives his students to address this exact mental connection.

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