Hi @carranoj25.
Yes, I posted a thread that was concerned (primarily) with Shawn’s picking technique. That thread is here:
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Playlist of videos I’ve recorded to try to explain these concepts:
15 videos in total.
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Thank for your work Tom! I feel like this thread deserves a clearer title like “the science of fast fretting” or similar - so that the average person can find it easily and you get the visibility you deserve 
Hi @tommo.
Would it perhaps be better to start a new thread with the videos in the OP and referencing this thread? This thread is already very long, and the videos may not be seen by a first time reader. Also, the length may make it seem daunting.
However, I don’t want to clutter up the forum unneccessarily either.
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I think a new show & tell thread is totally fine - you can then reference this thread as the "theory part " that goes with the new videos
REviving this thread! @Tom_Gilroy question for you regarding this attached tab for a cool country solo. But we see this pattern in tons of other pentatonic stuff.
Im talking specifically the last bar of the solo on page 2 where it walks down the Aminor; the 7-5, 7-5, 7-5-3 part. I can do this fast enough but it always feels a little tricky and im wondering if Im just doing it non-efficiently. How do fast players generally tend to play this? Do they only use two fingers and just slide down the C note on the A string? hit the C on the low E instead? 3 fingers and a pull off? If 3 fingers, which fingers do most fast players typically use? I feel like it’s kind of difficult to go ring index for the 7-5 parts and then instantly have to switch to a three note position for the 7-5-3 on the A string. Any thoughts?
Not Tom, but I’d do it as 3 1, 3 1, 4 2 1, 3 1 - feels smooth. I’d wager most players would shift position on the A string and do it all with 2 fingers, though.
Firstly,
This is a good option. Also a good option to fret the A note on the low E with the 2nd finger.
Eric Johnson would definitely do this. I’d say the most EJish way to do it is
3 1 3 1 3 1 shift 1 3 1
or
3 1 3 1 3p1 shift 1 3 1
Shawn Lane might have done a variation on
3 1 3 1 4 2 1 2 1
most likely with some descending hammers and hammers from nowhere
3 1 3 1 4 h2 h1 h2 h1
The EJ approach is definitely fast enough for the stated tempo (160bpm), and the SL approach has the potential to go much faster.
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When you say shift do you mean just slide the fingers down? I actually tried this with hammers from nowhere last night and it works great.
5-3
5-3
5-3-1 (4 2 1 fingers and all hammers) it works well
It’s weird how descending is different. I’d prob just go the easy way and shift fingers down and just use two fingers, but ascending I think I’d go with three fingers
I don’t know if I have a dystonia thing going on (especially since I don’t seem to experience this same problem in my right hand when I flip my guitar lefty [though overall I’m totally uncoordinated, I’m not saying I can play ambidextrously]), but on double whole step combinations, I tend to play 1-3-4 ascending because my ring finger has a tendency to close down when moving from 2 to 4, which either introduces an unintended new note, or winds up choking the note played by finger 2. This even sometimes introduces problems in half-whole sequences, as those aren’t terribly playable as 1-2-3 in lower positions. I feel like my own vocabulary has unconsciously avoided relying on those patterns, but it seems like it’s made learning the vocabulary of other players incredibly difficult. I don’t know if this an example of finger 3 not having total independence from 2 and 4, or an example of a developed dystonia.
Hi @timehat, I’m not qualified to diagnose dystonia that or to advise you on that.
However, I have seen similar issues which were due to suboptimal positioning or too much exertion while fretting. It’s very possible that this is an issue which you would be able to correct.
Hey, thanks for your response. I’m just going to try to do the agonizing, slow work of undoing what might simply be a habit I’ve fallen into. I can control that ring finger at slow speeds, but if I attempt to relax and play quickly, it’s right back to stomping all over where it doesn’t need to be. I’ve been sitting here for a good 30-45 minutes just going super slow and gradually increasing speed and repetitions, and it seems to be paying some dividends. Funny thing is when I switch to lefty, I simply don’t have this problem at all. Weird
I’ve been considering what you’re saying, and I’m wondering if you possess what I have in my right hand. Does the pinky droop less when you make the rocker symbol like this 
than when you make it with your other hand? Does it create a pain down the pinky side of your hand when you do ?
Are you able to swing tempo this kind of exercise with those fingers?
If so when you go into the triplet double time try to focus more on hearing the difference between the two boxes. Try to aurally perceive both of them as two separate entities to take your focus off of the fingers. Try to trick your hands by focusing more on the sound, does that help?
I am glad I was refered to this amazing thread by another user. I do have a quesion that Tom_Gilroy might be able to answer, or give his ideas to.
In the very first post, you said
"
A cycle need not carry a specific starting digit, so we have equivalant fretting cycles
(1 2 3) = (2 3 1) = (3 1 2)
and
(3 2 1) = (2 1 3) = (1 3 2)
but
(1 2 3) =/= (1 3 2)
"
I noticed that guitar shredders (apparently SL too?) seem to use the “straight forward cycle” or the “straight backward cycle”, meaning abc or cba, almost exclusively.
I am experimenting with the other possible cycles at the moment and I find them significantly harder to play than the “straight” cycles. Do you have any idea as to why this might be the case, other than lack of talent on my part?
My idea for the relative effortlessness of the forward cycle is that the lower fingers stay on the fretboard relatively long before being moved away from the fretboard. Then again, that doesn´t apply for the backward cycle at all.
Best wishes,
Tobi
I wouldn’t say “lack of talent”. Probably “lack of exposure” is a better explanation. I’d noticed it too in my playing. I chalked it up to familiarity and more ‘mental’. Tom’s concept, I believe is more abstract. Meaning, there should be no more mechanical difficulty to loop 123 123 123 (etc)… than there is to loop 231 231 231(etc).
The missing link is how good our hand sync is. I purposely made an exercise to address this problem and I got good results from it. I’ve shared it on the forum in other threads and others said it helped them, so hopefully it helps you too.
I know @Tom_Gilroy has some, for lack of a better term, “proprietary” rudiments he gives his students to address this exact mental connection.
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I was wondering where/ whether groups of fives and sevens fit into the concept of EDC.
This video by Rusty Cooley is a good example. I watched it paying attention to the basic fingering patterns and I noticed that most of the time, he is either using two of the EDC (straight forward or straight backward threes), fives (meaning 1 2 3 2 1 or 3 2 1 2 3) and sometimes sevens (3 2 1 2 3 2 1).
The five note patterns to me seem to be almost as efficient as the three note patterns. The forward cycle 1 2 3 2 1 has every note fretted and released only once. The backward cycle is different, but it surely doesn´t slow down Rusty´s playing. Also in combination with the forward cycle, each finger seems to have plenty of time to refret/ release.
Hi @Dairwolf , sorry for the delayed response.
The fives patterns (1 2 3 2 1) and (3 2 1 2 3) can be very fast, but they’re not general.
The (1 2 3 2 1) pattern makes use of the the “reveal” idea which I’ve discussed before. The lower fingers (1 & 2) almost always hold lower notes fretted, which are then “revealed” by the lifting of the higher fingers.
The (3 2 1 2 3) pattern makes use of the “rock” action of the wrist that we discussed before. The rock can be done quickly, but it’s application is limited (usually either repeating a note, or note on the same fret on an adjacent string).
The EDCs are almost totally generic. Lower notes never need to be held for a reveal. The wrist isn’t required to “rock” to assist fretting action, meaning it can be dedicated to repositioning the hand for a broader choice of notes.
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Thank you so much for putting this all together! After struggling with the Glasgow Kiss solo legato sections I have been searching for a comprehensive resource on legato technique and how to improve it. I am so excited to dive into the YouTube playlist you have so generously produced
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@Tom_Gilroy have you covered how open strings factor into this anywhere? Could you just drop them into any point of the four efficient cycles? For example with the (1 2 3) forward cycle (0 1 2 3), (1 0 2 3), (1 2 0 3), (1 2 3 0). Does the introduction of open strings make things that would be less efficient and don’t strictly adhere to a forward or backward cycle closer to maximally efficient?
Thank you