Erotomania 3rd solo help

[Troy]

I’m at a disadvantage of learning DT/Petrucci stuff due to the fact that I’m a UWPSlanter

John uses wrist motion, from a slightly supinated arm position. Your arm position looks pretty much the same to me. So I’m not really seeing the “disadvantage” here.

With the arm position you have, you can choose to make a picking motion where only the downstroke escapes. That would be your “upward pickslanting” motion, or what we sometimes call a “2:00” wrist motion. This is what it looks like you are doing around the 20 second mark.

It’s also similar to what Andy James is doing in the thread about him today, which you can find here:

Andy James upward pick slanting clear exmaple?

Great clip, and a small correction. Andy’s arm position is “strings supinated”. In other words, when you rest both the radial and ulnar sides, that’s a supinated position. The downstroke will be a 2:00 movement, and you can see this pretty clearly at the 1:48 mark of the video. Looks a lot like Andy Wood here. To get the “strings pronated” position, you rest only the radial side. This is the Molly Tuttle and David Grier orientation. And we’ll also see this with Oz Noy coming up. This is …

This is a good example of why I think we will eventually we’ll stop using the term “pickslanting” to describe motions. I think it’s probably clearer for most people to look at the motions they are making and understand exactly what they are doing, instead of worrying that they have “too much slant” or something, which is frankly never the way it worked. I know we’re responsible for this confusion so again I apologize - we’re learning to be clearer as we go here.

[aliendough]

That would be your “upward pickslanting” motion, or what we sometimes call a “2:00” wrist motion.

Is 2.00 wrist motion now what you are calling UWPS?

[tommo]

@aliendough

Is 2.00 wrist motion now what you are calling UWPS?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the agreed terminology (in this period of transition ) is that UWPS includes all picking movements where the upstroke is trapped, while the downstroke escapes the plane of the strings. The “2pm wrist motion” is only one of many options to achieve this result!

[Troy]

@tommo

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the agreed terminology (in this period of transition ) is that UWPS includes all picking movements where the upstroke is trapped, while the downstroke escapes the plane of the strings. The “2pm wrist motion” is only one of many options to achieve this result!

Exactly!

@aliendough

Is 2.00 wrist motion now what you are calling UWPS?

Tommo has it right. We will probably stop saying “uwps” when we mean “picking motion where the downstroke escapes” because when we mean the motion, it’s much clearer to talk about the motion itself.

However I think we will still use the term uwps to describe the pick having a slanted appearance, which is what the term really was supposed to be in the first place. We just didn’t realize that the two were different things at first. We sort of did, but then we sort of didn’t. When you use a picking motion that is diagonal, where one of the pickstrokes escapes and the other is trapped, then you also have to alter the grip a little to make sure the pick is angled the same amount.

However, the reverse is not true. As an example, if you look at Frank Gambale sweeping, you can see very clearly that you can have a slanted grip even when the picking motion is not angled and never leaves the strings. The two things are separate.

[tommo]

@zhang

which note am I missing actually? Maybe its prolly because im not articulating the bass notes well. Lol. Figures.

Back on topic

I think the fastest way is to “steal” a screenshot from Escobar’s video:

I thought you were not playing the low notes “3”, “0”, “0” “3”, etc., but maybe I am wrong.

They are also hard to hear when Petrucci plays it to be honest.

In case you are interested, here’s how I play that part (unplugged sound sorry), including slomo:

Erotomania fours - inside picking

[zhang]

I thought you were not playing the low notes “3”, “0”, “0” “3”, etc., but maybe I am wrong.

They are also hard to hear when Petrucci plays it to be honest.

In case you are interested, here’s how I play that part (unplugged sound sorry), including slomo:

Omg what…

…WHAT

[BillHoudini]

You guys are acing it! It looks pretty unplayable to me, like it did the first time I heard it a few years ago. Being an UPWS player doesn’t really help, I’m still trying to find ways to work around stuff like that.

[zhang]

Being an UPWS player doesn’t really help, I’m still trying to find ways to work around stuff like that.

Well I’m an UWPSlanter to too but i think that never really detered me from trying and challenging myself.

Thing is with learning any craft, it’s just like gaming. When you progress on through a given timeline, you unlock certain tiers and skills. Hard and fast solos are like the boss levels. You die but you take the time try and figure it out, then respawn to try again. Till this day I’m still amazed at the progress I’ve made through trial and error.

[BillHoudini]

I know what you mean, my favourite players are DWPS, so I’m always trying to play what they play, but in my own way. Finding new picking strategies and thinking behind the note choices and the fingerings it’s something very refreshing to me.

Before CTC I was just trying to play the songs note for note, but that wasn’t the case most of time. Like you said, it’s like a neverending video game.

[tommo]

@BillHoudini, @zhang, if you are primary UWPS-ers I seriously suggest to try the erotomania fives lick (or mega-lick!) with an escape pulloff every 10th note: for example the first 10 notes read

----------------14-15-17-15p14-
-17-15-14-15-17----------------
 D  U  D   ...            D   

This allows for pure UWPS execution and you only pay the price of occasional repeated downstrokes - but with a pulloff in between that gives you time to reset. The speed/timing benefits are enormous. With this solo it’s easy to have small timing irregularities, particularly when the string skips are involved. This feels like blasphemy but even in some JP live performances of this solo I believe I can hear an occasional longer gap after some of the 10-notes chunks. The pulloff “cheat” allows to even things out quite a lot.

That being said, I am still practicing the solo all-picked and when it clicks it does sound badass, but the “cheat” UWPS version feels soo much easier!

EDIT: even more blasphemy sorry - I think that Andy James (a great UWPS player) may use an occasional (or perhaps even systematic?) cheeky pulloff in his (great) cover of this solo - notice the right hand that seems to lift after most of the 10-note chunks, which may indicate the repeated downstroke with pulloff in between. I am not 100% sure but there you go!

Lick library Dream Theater Erotomania Performance

EDIT 2: and here is a fully UWPS, fully efficient version with 2 non-picked notes - can be brought to infinite speed in principle (but the hammer may be difficult to articulate well)

----------------14-15-17-15p14-
-17-15-14-15h17----------------
 U  D  U  D     U  D  U  D

[zhang]

Wow

I just recorded the best take of the full song out of 20-30 takes yesterday. 2 cameras. One being my Sony mirrorless to capture the full view and the other being my Samsung phone to capture my picking hand.

The SD card in my mirrorless JUST had to corrupt as I was about to import to my PC for editing. FML

[tommo]

Aw that sucks!

@zhang

I just recorded the best take of the full song out of 20-30 takes yesterday. 2 cameras.

I’m curious: do you usually try to record the whole song start to finish in one go, or do you break it into smaller sections?

I think a lot of youtubers use the second method, typically switching between different camera angles to not make it so obvious

[zhang]

Okay, here’s a very weird thing with me and DT songs

Due to their complex and unpredictable nature in terms of composition combined with already taxing technicality, I find that playing stuff like Erotomania is like walking a tight rope. The moment I stop to record another segment, I lose my balance and start from square one.

With that being said, I actually did method two previously, but found myself stuck at the first solo for nearly a full day because for some reason I wasn’t able to get it down! The timing was weird, the picking was kind weird and it just messed with me.

So I decided to record everything in one shot. I told myself, okay, gonna do the whole song, then do another take for the clean part right?

It worked. I’m not sure how I managed to pull it off but it worked when I did it in one shot. I drilled all solos like crazy before that, and it paid off. All that just went down the toilet with the corrupt SD card.

Gonna lay this off till this weekend to record again lmao.

[DGG]

I am not 100% sure but there you go!

Yes, he uses a pull off. I asked Andy in the AJ academy group and he said that as a rule of thumb he would played D U D Ho Ho U D U D Po. And if pushing for picking he would do it picking all notes starting with a downstroke except for the last one Po.

This part of the solo has been in my practice routine exercise for years. Still working on it.

[tommo]

@DGG

This part of the solo has been in my practice routine exercise for years. Still working on it.

It’s a hard solo innit - do you usually try to pick all the notes or use the AJ pull-off strategy?

@DGG

Yes, he uses a pull off. I asked Andy in the AJ academy group and he said that as a rule of thumb he would played D U D Ho Ho U D U D Po. And if pushing for picking he would do it picking all notes starting with a downstroke except for the last one Po.

Thanks for confirming my suspicion! It is sort of a relief to know that even a player of his caliber prefers to adopt this strategy. And it does sound terrific the way he does it!

In fact, this reinforces my impression that there aren’t many players who can nail the eroto-fives lick by picking all the notes and keeping it clean and fully in time.Two exceptions are of course the early Petrucci and David Escobar.

[DGG]

Currently working on just picking. This is my 2WPS ultimate challenge due to the speed. I think is played around 160 bpm while my top speed is around 120 bpm (still long way to go).

[tommo]

@DGG

my top speed is around 120 bpm (still long way to go).

It may seem crazy that I reply after such a long time, but I was recently thinking about a related issue. Have you been stuck at 120 for a while? If so it is unlikely you will overcome this by simple repetition, and it is worth analyzing if the movements you are using are actually capable of 160bpm - it doesn’t matter if it comes out super sloppy, but are you already capable of that speed in principle - for example in one of the sub-licks that make up the solo?

PS: luckily I think the speed of the recording is more like 156bpm, so just a tiny bit more doable by humans When examining some live recordings I noticed they may even slow it down a bit - like 150bpm or so.

PPS: As for me, I can hit the song’s tempo all-picked on a good day, but it never feels relaxed/controlled enough and as a result I don’t think it sounds that good. With the “Andy James” method (one pulloff) I feel that I’ll soon be able to reach the right balance of speed + relaxation. Maybe I’ll eventually post a comparison video here if it can be of interest.

[qwertygitarr]

Maybe I’ll eventually post a comparison video here if it can be of interest.

Yes please do if you have the time, Tommo! I’d love to hear and see that!

[DGG]

the movements you are using are actually capable of 160bpm

Well, I think so. I will try to post a video. Recently I have been working in burst. That way I am trying to increase my top speed. What I have found so far is that most of the time I keep a pronated wrist position combined with UPS so for the last note of every 10 notes phrase I will rotate to pick the first of the next 10 notes phrase in a DWS sort of position and immediately reposition back to pronated UPS. The main speed issue I believe is this recoil movement.
In my mind ideally the sequence should be:
4 notes DWS followed by a note + rotation to UPS
4 notes UPS followed by a note + rotation to DWS and to start over.
My execution is more like:
9 notes UPS followed by a note plus a double rotation back to UPS. Being the double rotation composed by first rotation to scape in the upstroke (supination) and the second rotation to come back to the pronated position on top of the next string to play. And definitely that double rotation is taking too much time at high speeds.
On the other hand I can play some fast lines on a supinated DWS but the movement seems to come from forearm rotation while my pronated UPS seem to come from wrist deviation so even at moderate speeds I am unable to switch back and for properly from one to the other specially from UPS to DWS.

[tommo]

@qwertygitarr

Yes please do if you have the time, Tommo! I’d love to hear and see that!

Love your enthusiasm @qwertygitarr - I’ll se what I can do, I don’t have much time to practice these days so the top end of my fast playing is suffering (and the erotomania solo - with its 13 notes per sec and wide skips - is pretty much at the limit of my ability). Worst case scenario, I may be able to dig up some old footage where I more or less played the thing - but wasn’t too happy with it.

Incidentally, you should be able to rip through this solo with your “dwps +swiping” strategy, let me know if you want to try it! Unfortunately I’m not yet that comfy with this approach otherwise I’d use it. As I stated several times, this is how I believe JP actually does it.

@DGG

In my mind ideally the sequence should be:
4 notes DWS followed by a note + rotation to UPS
4 notes UPS followed by a note + rotation to DWS and to start over.

I would not advise this approach, most TWPS players do the rotation quite late, say 8 notes UPS and only 2 DWPS when needed (see e.g. Batio). This way you only have to plan your transition points, and not micro-manage your pickstrokes for the whole lick!