Everything you need to know about crosspicking

They could do it just fine, and they were hitting the notes. They were not super fast. It was like someone riding a bike and mostly going straight but having to pedal with a little more effort. I did this with Brendon Small too and he was able to do it right away as well. He did that all on his own, no hands-on orientation. But mainly because I saw he was already basically making the movement. He’s another pronated player.

Basically I think this specific movement is just not super complicated for someone to learn, once you narrow down exactly what it is you are asking someone to do. There are relatively few moving parts, the hand placement is clear, the grip is clear. You’re already doing it yourself and it looks pretty much exactly like what I do.

Do you think it’s weird that something is easy enough for a person to learn almost right away when you show them, but hard to figure out on their own because they don’t even know what they’re looking for?

Well, welcome to guitar picking!

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I get it, user error, not yours. That helps, it’s always the joint, not the thing being moved. Thanks! Funny, I took your advice, misunderstanding your advice, and applied to something else, and it helped me! Who knew? :wink:

No, I don’t think that’s weird at all. It’s this thing where once you know what to look for, you see it very clearly, whereas before you can stare at something for a long time without noticing anything.

I would like to clarify something else. You said that

The way that I understand it, in a pronated setup the downstrokes use wrist flexion and deviation above the sring and deviation only below the string. Is that what you meant here?

Ah, interesting. In this case, it’s of course not true what I said earlier, that Molly Tuttle is saying something very similar to you. Sorry about that…

Correct. If the string you are trying to hit is farther away, then the flexion leg of the journey is longer, and may bend even more to reach the string. As this happens, you might also see a very small associated twisting of the arm to cover that greater distance, particularly if the picking path Molly is choosing is not strictly deviational (i.e. windshield wiper) but a little offset from that to essentially require a blend of all the wrist / forearm motions.

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Sorry, just to clarify further, there’s never really a point where the movement is “only” one thing or another above or below the string. There’s always overlap of some kind, otherwise the hand would need to make an instant directional change and that’s really not possible. The amount and nature of the overlap is reflected by the arm position. In a parallel setup, you can do a pure deviation movement over the whole range of motion. And in a 90-degree setup - either supinated or pronated - you could have a pure flexion-extension movement over the whole range. They wouldn’t be crosspicking because pure wrist crosspicking would not be possible at those orientations. But these are the inflection points.

At every point in between those inflections, you have a blend of RUD - radial ulnar deviation, to use the academic abbreviation - and FE. In the case of Steve Morse for example, he’s toward the supinated end of the spectrum, so in his movement, FE goes almost the whole way. RUD appears above the string. In Molly’s case, she’s pronated but closer to parallel, so deviation goes the whole way. But again there is overlap and FE continues a little below the string. If you were to pronate even further, you would eventually arrive at “reverse Morse”, where FE is going almost the whole way, but RUD now appears below the string. It’s fun to experiment with these things just to help you understand what’s really going on, but you can indeed “reverse Morse” and it sort of works.

In Molly’s case, again, she’s closer to parallel it’s going to look deviation-y. However she can indeed flex a little below the string because of this. And she may do that, along with a tiny amount of forearm adjustment to reach farther, such as during these back and forth inside picking type sequences.

Again, all of this assumes she’s using a wrist motion pathway. If she adjusts that to be somewhere between a pickups-parallel path and a wrist path, then you will definitely see some forearm involvement because the wrist along can’t trace that path.

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I would add to this that the more ‘sudden’ the change from one mechanic to another… the slower your max speed will be. So I think blending is an important concept for speed.

I think there is a tradeoff. The more sudden the change… the sharper your curve can be… which make is easier to clear strings.

On the opposite spectrum… you can do a double-escape where there is a huge amount of overlap, where all your mechanics are roughly working together at mid-swing. This is what I do. The upside is you can go really fast. The downside to this is that the escape time and height is minimal, and its pretty tough to do… requiring multiple mechanics working together with a lot of precision.

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Troy, what do you mean exactly by ‘reach farther’ ? Is it to get to upper strings more easily whilst maintaining anchoring, or is it to lift up the pick a tad bit more for clearance ?

Yes that. But to such a tiny degree I wouldn’t even bother mentioning this if I were teaching someone. Molly’s arm barely moves when she does these patterns.

In general I’m happy to answer these “inside baseball” technical questions on the forum but I think sometimes observations like this which don’t necessarily have significant impact on actual learning might get read into prohibitively when trying to “figure out” movements. From my experience so far, I think when it comes to most (all?) picking movements I personally know how to do, I’m pretty sure most people can get 80% of the way there with basic guidance on placement and very general, hands-on-style guidance on how to move. Lots of great guitar teachers on here have already done that work in their private teaching. We’re just hammering out what that basic guidance should look like in our instructional material.

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But there is any kind of guide to Xpicking in the horizon?
We already heard about it, but something like you can hold the pick this way and concentrate in doing this and that… Or you can hold the pick this other way and etc…

I worked a lot in copy the Morse Grip, and I think that I’m achieving Xpicking with that approach. But now I’m working in doing this with my “normal” grip. Sometimes I think I’m doing Xpicking and sometimes I feel it’s 2WPS or Hopping. Hard to say…

Probably will be the next “bang” in the guitar community when the “Cross Picking Manual” arrive.

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Got it! Works like magic! Thanx!

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I made a web toy to help visualize all this stuff. Check it out:
http://garspout.com/pickbot/

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Very cool. Can you add finger motion? My technique relies on it quite heavily.

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That’s awesome!! Total grasp of the concepts there. Are you a developer?

Looks like you’re using three.js. Leap Motion has some js integration which we’ve tested. You can get a basic model up and running quickly. Unclear how much they will support this moving forward though. We’ve done some testing with Unity as well:

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@vnjksnv: That’s totally cool!

FWIW the ‘pronated crosspicking’ preset looks a lot what I’m doing.

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Unclear - your old clips appear to have gone dark. However from what I recall I think it’s possible you’re trying to do the supinated Andy-style movements with a parallel arm position, and this is potentially what’s making you feel like you need to introduce forearm motion.

Honestly, given your interest in this subject I would recommend you take advantage of the free trial and watch the broadcast we just did. It’s the most up to date presentation we have on doing these techniques, including extensive slow-motion walkthroughs of Andy, Molly, and David. It will clarify much for anyone who’s attempting to learn bluegrass movements with wrist techniques.

Kind of. But I had a couple of light bulb moments working on crosspicking, and it did affect the way I do it.

The first thing is that I realized that by ‘nesting’, combining or skipping forward and backward rolls on all 4 string positions (that is : 4 x 3 strings set) you open up an amazing possibilities of patterns. That, plus combining single strings lines with the same crosspicking approach (or its 2wps variation/reduction) gives you that lush bluegrass sound that has eluded me for years… and a lot more than that.

The second thing is that to be able to do that I needed to reconcile a couple of things in my playing, especially when playing on the lower strings. And I’m clearly pronated when it comes to pick the lower E and A strings. So it kind of ‘gave’ me two approach for the roll : one that is pronated, wrist deviation with almost no forearm motion, and one which is more a parallels set-up with a forearm ‘kick’. The forearm version is especially relevant for certain things IMO, like when you do fast double inside change (the stuff Andy Wood does all the time).

Now I’m scratching the surface on this, but it’s a lot of fun, and again, it opens up amazing possibilities of playing, in a very logical way… but you already know that, don’t you :wink:

Thanks for reminding me about the trial. I’ll check this out. But anyway the advices you gave on this were amazing and already plenty.

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Hey Troy - Sorry it’s taken so long to respond. I’m not a pro developer, just a hobbyist. Glad you like pickbot. Let me know if you want me to add anything.

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Will this work for Steve Morse stuff? Or like the glass prison arpeggios?

Hi Troy, thanks so much for the office visit! It was great!
A few questions:

  1. Do you personally prefer double escape picking (cross picking) using the wrist as shown here and discussed in our session, rather than forearm rotation (more like Jimmy Herring)? If so, why?
  2. You mentioned your own practice on double escape from the wrist- do you have any idea how long it took you to get it to where it is now?
    Thanks!
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