# Fast Downstrokes for Thrash Rhythms
**URL:** https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985
**Category:** Playing Technique
**Created:** [October 19, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985 "2017-10-19T14:33:50Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Hanky\_Pooh](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/Hanky_Pooh)
#### Post date: [October 29, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/43 "2017-10-29T21:40:42Z")
> [@Troy](#):
>
> The practical problem we’re trying to address here is that you’ve got people like Hank doing what we tell him, and then getting super confused when the result doesn’t look or feel the way we say it should. That’s on us. Clarity is what we’re trying to deliver.
> [@Troy](#):
>
> (Teemu)…you can see that his wrist moves independently from his forearm. In other words, this is a blend motion. You have bits of both happening. I absolutely do not mean to discourage you from doing a thing which is working. By all means continue, the name of the game is results.
>
> However I think we also need to be clear about what we’re seeing in these “rotation” clips. If you do ultimately decide to experiment with other ways of doing things, like Teemu’s, there is probably some mental process Teemu is using to produce this movement that is different from “turn the arm”, whether or not he is aware of it.
Ok, ok, I gotcha mane 😉😉 Forearm rotation is the name of the movement. Not meaning that is the only mechanic a player can use, or is using. I do what you guys are telling me because, until a few months ago, I’ve never used my wrist or forearm much. Thanks for the guidance guys. Hehe 😁
> [@Frylock](#):
>
> I think you are doing “stealth rotation” or if you look at the bits on the lower strings in your Thriller solo, the flex in your wrist increases as you move toward the bass strings, and it’s not even “stealth” anymore, at least to my eye.
> [@Frylock](#):
>
> But that segment at 14:42 of the Teemu interview gives a good look at the aspect of his technique that gets described as having a forearm-rotation mechanic
Thank you @Frylock , you da man. I see what you are saying.
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### Author:  [@BurningAXE](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/BurningAXE)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2017, 6:53am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/44 "2017-10-30T06:53:21Z")
> [@Troy](#):
>
> Teemu’s forearm certainly moves a little, but he is not using EVH-style forearm rotation, where the hand / arm are fused and move together. If you watch clips like the Tritone clip:
>
> [Rhythm Tritone Chug – Cracking the Code](https://troygrady.com/interviews/teemu-mantysaari/teemu-mantysaari-clips/rhythm-tritone-chug/)
>
> …you can see that his wrist moves independently from his forearm. In other words, this is a blend motion. You have bits of both happening.
Hmm. Again, you got me reevaluating my thoughts about Teemu’s technique. After watching all the rhythm clips from the interview and my video from the lesson I think you are right (surprise!). The wrist certainly moves independently from the elbow. (Looks like I’m only seeing what I want to see.) I experimented with this last night and found that when you do the motion from the wrist (extension + deviation) there is a parasitic rotation of the forearm as a side effect. I have to consciously try to not move the elbow. Could it be the same side effect in Teemu’s case?
I also tried to use forearm rotation + wrist extension/deviation but it was hard not to lean to one or the other.
Anyway, I think I’m gonna give the wrist extension/deviation a try for a week or so. For now it seems that I have about the same speed with tremolo and a little less for downpicking. Will keep you updated.
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### Author:  [@Troy](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/Troy)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/45 "2017-10-30T20:20:30Z")
> [@BurningAXE](#):
>
> What I found confirmed Troy’s observations: Hetfield (as does Hammett) has a supinated position from which he uses wrist flexion/extension + deviation to do fast downpicking.
Fyi here’s a quick closeup of Hetfield gallops and chord stabs from Battery. Indeed as Hank points out in Teemu’s case, there’s a small amount of rotation for the chords but really not much. He’s just digging in across multiple strings, and needs to reach farther, so that makes sense. For everything else, he appears to be primarily a wrist player, and a powerful one at that:
https://player.vimeo.com/video/240549287
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### Author:  [@Hanky\_Pooh](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/Hanky_Pooh)
#### Post date: [October 30, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/46 "2017-10-30T23:00:48Z")
> [@Troy](#):
>
> Fyi here’s a quick closeup of Hetfield gallops and chord stabs from Battery. Indeed as Hank points out in Teemu’s case, there’s a small amount of rotation for the chords but really not much. He’s just digging in across multiple strings, and needs to reach farther, so that makes sense. For everything else, he appears to be primarily a wrist player, and a powerful one at that:
Yeah, I think Teemu and Hetfield roll that forearm for accenting. Het is using forearm for accenting chords out of the wrist palm mutes here I think. I notice Teemu when galloping between 16th and 32nd notes; He might keep the forearm on the 16ths and let his wrist snap the 32nds(or vice versa?) here and there. Then I assume Teemu goes forearm sometimes when he doesn’t have to mute with tremolo picking. This isn’t rule, but yea… I think I see a lot of wrist in Teemu and James. But I’m not an expert, so don’t quote me. And I’m still taking the videos in. Only watched a few times. Sorry for punctuation. lmao.
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### Author:  [@ASTN](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/ASTN)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 7:59am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/47 "2017-10-31T07:59:26Z")
2 mcm:
Well, I have another story. While I’m doing downpicking and getting closer to 200bpm my plectrum starts to grab the string on return motion so downpicking 8th becomes alternate picking 16th. I can’t play MOP in original speed (220bpm).
So, theoretically if one could do alternate picking 16th on 220bpm than he could do downpicking 8th on 220bpm. Practically… no, it doesn’t work. I can do alternate picking in 16th on 220bpm without hard tension, but I can’t do downpicking at 190bpm without my hand being ruined after 1 minute or so.
P.S. Sorry for my english
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### Author:  [@Prlgmnr](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/Prlgmnr)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 8:49am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/48 "2017-10-31T08:49:49Z")
I can see why you would think “If I can do 16ths at X alternate then just doing downstroke 8ths should be easy”, but alternate picking is a really easy motion and you’re actually having to BREAK the motion to do just the downstrokes.
There’s no substitute on this for just doing long stretches of endurance work, I find particularly going down to a slow tempo where you maybe start to find it hard to control the rhythm and get it sounding really chunky (both on donwstrokes only and alternate).
If it ruins you after a minute, maybe tomorrow you can do a minute and ten.
I’ve mentioned it before but Zero Signal by Fear Factory is a great endurance workout - I like to see how far I can get into it before having to switch my wrist-based technique to an arm-based technique\* out of fatigue - 6 months ago I couldn’t even make it to the first chorus up to tempo, now I can just about get the whole way through.
\*Just to add, I prefer playing from the wrist because I feel like I have a lot more control both over dynamics and speed/rhythm, whereas going for that extra speed boost from the arm feels a bit like “tense it up and hope for the best”
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### Author:  [@kounistou](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/kounistou)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 8:58am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/49 "2017-10-31T08:58:07Z")
I hope this isn’t too much off topic.
Yesterday I was having fun playing “Everlong” from Foo Fighters and after playing the song a couple of times, I noticed that I was well warmed up to play Metallica down picking patterns. Just an idea for some of you who want a fun exercise. Your friends could be singing along while you get better at down picking!
You’ll have to tune down to drop D though. That also means you’ll be all set for some RATM \m/
Cheers!
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### Author:  [@mcm](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/mcm)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 10:11am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/50 "2017-10-31T10:11:41Z")
That’s interesting, totally different to my experience. I think your case makes more sense, because as you speed up it gets harder to do the wrist extension to jump over the string for downpicking, so you end up catching the string on the upstroke and start alternate picking. I think that means you have a good non-stringhoppy technique. Alternate picking at 220bpm without tension is pretty amazing, I’m envious.
In my case, I think the reason I’m faster at downpicking is because I’m using totally different hand motions for downpicking and alternate picking - finger motion for alternate and wrist for downpicking.
So, I think what might help you is to try and use a different motion for downpicking than for your alternate picking. Try and feel around for something that feels more like you’re bouncing off the string, using the ‘door-knocking’ wrist extension movement to jump away from the strings after the downstroke. Also what @Prlgmnr said, it helps to do endurance practice where you slow down and try to downpick for like a minute constantly, without too much tension. Don’t ruin your hand!
By the way I think Master of Puppets is actually around 212bpm. Although I guess the tempo drifts as they didn’t record it to a click. Also your English is great.
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### Author:  [@ASTN](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/ASTN)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 10:24am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/51 "2017-10-31T10:24:47Z")
Yep, I think you are right. When one playing downstroke only he have to add some kind of motion to avoid the string which makes it more difficult than just “pluck string down - pluck string up”.
Well, I don’t consider myself as a guitarist, more like “guitar curious” 🙂 So, I am not “into training” kind of man. Just strum some chords at evenings. …Actually I tried some training this summer. And it was infamous CtC 6-notes pattern. Then I got pain in my hand, couldn’t even hold a cup. So I decided that all that kind of inspirational trainigs is not for me. Same for “endurance workout” )
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### Author:  [@ASTN](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/ASTN)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 10:33am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/52 "2017-10-31T10:33:30Z")
ehmm… I don’t really think there’s any reason to envy. I have what I call “useless skill”. As I said earlier I’m not a good guitarist, so despite the fact I do this 220bpm trill it gives me nothing. Because I can’t do almost anything with left hand in such a speed )) Just tremolo, or some kind of BlackMetal or Misirlou thing (when you change frets seldom relatively to picking hand motion)
To achieve MOP speed I tried to imitate Hettfield’s hand position and found that it makes me feel strange and my hand becomes all stiff. So I throw off the idea. May be speed just would come somehow
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### Author:  [@Troy](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/Troy)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/53 "2017-10-31T15:21:06Z")
> [@ASTN](#):
>
> Because I can’t do almost anything with left hand in such a speed )) Just tremolo, or some kind of BlackMetal or Misirlou thing (when you change frets seldom relatively to picking hand motion)
That’s music! Misirlou is a classic tune, and a classic folk song, and lots of people can’t play it. I’ve said this before, but if you’re great at something, do more of it. And find cool uses for it.
If you get a chance to film some of this 220 tremolo, we’d love to see it in “Technique Critique”.
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### Author:  [@mcm](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/mcm)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/54 "2017-10-31T17:22:40Z")
I don’t think its a useless skill, it means you already have picking speed down and just have to practice the left hand and synchronisation. Chunking short phrases like the forum-favourite Yngwie 6-note pattern would help. Troy has talked about chunking in the past for syncing up the left hand with the right. Sounds like you have a decent foundation, I think most players struggle to get the picking speed down in the first place.
And yeah, just copying someones hand position is maybe not the best idea, especially if it’s uncomfortable. Everyone has a different hand movement that feels natural for them, thats why so many great players have completely different-looking hand positions. I would guess that you just haven’t found your ideal downpicking motion yet.
For the record It took me more than a year of practice before I could play MOP… (not trying to be discouraging!)
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### Author:  [@ASTN](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/ASTN)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/55 "2017-10-31T17:40:02Z")
Well, I meant I could play “something like Misirlou” not the song itself (I don’t even know it whole). Some kind of playing when you do many strokes with right hand, then change note with your left hand
and then again play many notes with right hand.
I could try record it, but I have cheap webcam only, so I doubt if it would be useful. Though - I guess - it may show things like hand position and something else. Worth a try?
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### Author:  [@ASTN](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/ASTN)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/56 "2017-10-31T17:50:07Z")
Well, about this kind of fast movement… It’s hard to explain. It’s like it has no connection with my ability to play music. When I play some melody I feel totally different. For example, after almost two monthes of training I now can play 6-note pattern with 85bpm (with good warmup). It would be about 125bpm in 16th, right? That’s what I call “my useful speed”. Though it’s kind of my maximum, because I play scales much slower.
…downpicking… It’s really hard. I can’t even imagine how you do it. May be it’s kinda physiological thing? I mean, someone could run fast, someone lift crazy weights… someone do mighty downstroke ))
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### Author:  [@Troy](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/Troy)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/57 "2017-10-31T18:23:30Z")
> [@ASTN](#):
>
> It’s like it has no connection with my ability to play music.
Tremolo is still music! If you are good at unregulated tremolo, you can work on musical pieces which require it, like Misirlou. And then you can write your own tunes that have similar technical requirements. When you are learning technique, and you find you are good at something, definitely pursue it as far as it will go. Everything you can learn will help everything else eventually.
> [@ASTN](#):
>
> I could try record it, but I have cheap webcam only
Sure, let’s see what it looks like.
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### Author:  [@Troy](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/Troy)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/58 "2017-10-31T19:01:27Z")
2 posts were split to a new topic: [ASTN Tremolo Clip](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/astn-tremolo-clip/1152)
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### Author:  [@ASTN](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/ASTN)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/60 "2017-10-31T18:56:26Z")
😁
P.S. I’d never thought my hand looks so awful with these trebly spider fingers …
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### Author:  [@HappyMetal\_Ben](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/HappyMetal_Ben)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/61 "2017-11-09T00:32:05Z")
We definitely need a CTC episode on Downpicking technique, speed, and endurance building!
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### Author:  [@BurningAXE](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/BurningAXE)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/62 "2017-11-10T19:52:29Z")
Hey guys, I promised to keep you updated with my experiment(s) but I don’t want to occupy this thread so I created my own to abuse as much as I desire 🙄 Anyone interested - head [over there](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/burningaxes-downpicking-tremolo-quest/1261).
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### Author:  [@kounistou](https://forum.troygrady.com/u/kounistou)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://forum.troygrady.com/t/fast-downstrokes-for-thrash-rhythms/985/63 "2017-11-13T21:10:48Z")
Hi all,
This guy seems to have figured it out:
I gave it a quick try and I don’t see any improvement yet, mainly because I am still using big movements and also not consistently making the wrist rotation as he mentioned.
Anyway, his result looks great. So i will keep trying.
Great YT channel by the way!
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