Fast Downstrokes for Thrash Rhythms

[Prlgmnr]

I can see why you would think “If I can do 16ths at X alternate then just doing downstroke 8ths should be easy”, but alternate picking is a really easy motion and you’re actually having to BREAK the motion to do just the downstrokes.

There’s no substitute on this for just doing long stretches of endurance work, I find particularly going down to a slow tempo where you maybe start to find it hard to control the rhythm and get it sounding really chunky (both on donwstrokes only and alternate).

If it ruins you after a minute, maybe tomorrow you can do a minute and ten.

I’ve mentioned it before but Zero Signal by Fear Factory is a great endurance workout - I like to see how far I can get into it before having to switch my wrist-based technique to an arm-based technique* out of fatigue - 6 months ago I couldn’t even make it to the first chorus up to tempo, now I can just about get the whole way through.

*Just to add, I prefer playing from the wrist because I feel like I have a lot more control both over dynamics and speed/rhythm, whereas going for that extra speed boost from the arm feels a bit like “tense it up and hope for the best”

[kounistou]

I hope this isn’t too much off topic.

Yesterday I was having fun playing “Everlong” from Foo Fighters and after playing the song a couple of times, I noticed that I was well warmed up to play Metallica down picking patterns. Just an idea for some of you who want a fun exercise. Your friends could be singing along while you get better at down picking!

You’ll have to tune down to drop D though. That also means you’ll be all set for some RATM \m/

Cheers!

[mcm]

That’s interesting, totally different to my experience. I think your case makes more sense, because as you speed up it gets harder to do the wrist extension to jump over the string for downpicking, so you end up catching the string on the upstroke and start alternate picking. I think that means you have a good non-stringhoppy technique. Alternate picking at 220bpm without tension is pretty amazing, I’m envious.

In my case, I think the reason I’m faster at downpicking is because I’m using totally different hand motions for downpicking and alternate picking - finger motion for alternate and wrist for downpicking.

So, I think what might help you is to try and use a different motion for downpicking than for your alternate picking. Try and feel around for something that feels more like you’re bouncing off the string, using the ‘door-knocking’ wrist extension movement to jump away from the strings after the downstroke. Also what @Prlgmnr said, it helps to do endurance practice where you slow down and try to downpick for like a minute constantly, without too much tension. Don’t ruin your hand!

By the way I think Master of Puppets is actually around 212bpm. Although I guess the tempo drifts as they didn’t record it to a click. Also your English is great.

[ASTN]

Yep, I think you are right. When one playing downstroke only he have to add some kind of motion to avoid the string which makes it more difficult than just “pluck string down - pluck string up”.

Well, I don’t consider myself as a guitarist, more like “guitar curious” So, I am not “into training” kind of man. Just strum some chords at evenings. …Actually I tried some training this summer. And it was infamous CtC 6-notes pattern. Then I got pain in my hand, couldn’t even hold a cup. So I decided that all that kind of inspirational trainigs is not for me. Same for “endurance workout” )

[ASTN]

ehmm… I don’t really think there’s any reason to envy. I have what I call “useless skill”. As I said earlier I’m not a good guitarist, so despite the fact I do this 220bpm trill it gives me nothing. Because I can’t do almost anything with left hand in such a speed )) Just tremolo, or some kind of BlackMetal or Misirlou thing (when you change frets seldom relatively to picking hand motion)

To achieve MOP speed I tried to imitate Hettfield’s hand position and found that it makes me feel strange and my hand becomes all stiff. So I throw off the idea. May be speed just would come somehow

[Troy]

Because I can’t do almost anything with left hand in such a speed )) Just tremolo, or some kind of BlackMetal or Misirlou thing (when you change frets seldom relatively to picking hand motion)

That’s music! Misirlou is a classic tune, and a classic folk song, and lots of people can’t play it. I’ve said this before, but if you’re great at something, do more of it. And find cool uses for it.

If you get a chance to film some of this 220 tremolo, we’d love to see it in “Technique Critique”.

[mcm]

I don’t think its a useless skill, it means you already have picking speed down and just have to practice the left hand and synchronisation. Chunking short phrases like the forum-favourite Yngwie 6-note pattern would help. Troy has talked about chunking in the past for syncing up the left hand with the right. Sounds like you have a decent foundation, I think most players struggle to get the picking speed down in the first place.

And yeah, just copying someones hand position is maybe not the best idea, especially if it’s uncomfortable. Everyone has a different hand movement that feels natural for them, thats why so many great players have completely different-looking hand positions. I would guess that you just haven’t found your ideal downpicking motion yet.

For the record It took me more than a year of practice before I could play MOP… (not trying to be discouraging!)

[ASTN]

Well, I meant I could play “something like Misirlou” not the song itself (I don’t even know it whole). Some kind of playing when you do many strokes with right hand, then change note with your left hand
and then again play many notes with right hand.

I could try record it, but I have cheap webcam only, so I doubt if it would be useful. Though - I guess - it may show things like hand position and something else. Worth a try?

[ASTN]

Well, about this kind of fast movement… It’s hard to explain. It’s like it has no connection with my ability to play music. When I play some melody I feel totally different. For example, after almost two monthes of training I now can play 6-note pattern with 85bpm (with good warmup). It would be about 125bpm in 16th, right? That’s what I call “my useful speed”. Though it’s kind of my maximum, because I play scales much slower.

…downpicking… It’s really hard. I can’t even imagine how you do it. May be it’s kinda physiological thing? I mean, someone could run fast, someone lift crazy weights… someone do mighty downstroke ))

[Troy]

It’s like it has no connection with my ability to play music.

Tremolo is still music! If you are good at unregulated tremolo, you can work on musical pieces which require it, like Misirlou. And then you can write your own tunes that have similar technical requirements. When you are learning technique, and you find you are good at something, definitely pursue it as far as it will go. Everything you can learn will help everything else eventually.

I could try record it, but I have cheap webcam only

Sure, let’s see what it looks like.

[ASTN]

P.S. I’d never thought my hand looks so awful with these trebly spider fingers …

[HappyMetal_Ben]

We definitely need a CTC episode on Downpicking technique, speed, and endurance building!

[BurningAXE]

Hey guys, I promised to keep you updated with my experiment(s) but I don’t want to occupy this thread so I created my own to abuse as much as I desire Anyone interested - head over there.

[kounistou]

Hi all,

This guy seems to have figured it out:

I gave it a quick try and I don’t see any improvement yet, mainly because I am still using big movements and also not consistently making the wrist rotation as he mentioned.

Anyway, his result looks great. So i will keep trying.

Great YT channel by the way!

[mortalis]

The book “The Art of James Hetfield” has the chapter “Picking Techniques” which says:

Don’t expect to be able to play at extreme tempos right away; that would be like a neophyte jogger trying to run a marathon. Work diligently, every day, and increase your tempos gradually and comfortably. There are two basic rules for achieving great speed with accuracy: use subtle and short movements of the pick, and keep your arm relaxed and in a comfortable position. Any tension in your hand or arm will ultimately hold you back from playing accurately at fast tempos. Remember that Hetfield uses downstrokes whenever possible; only at the fastest tempos will he use alternate picking.

Play this simple quarter-note exercise with successive downstrokes. Start at a comfortable tempo, perhaps 120, and work up to 208.

The eighth-note exercise can be played with successive downstrokes at slow to moderately fast tempos, but will require alternate picking once the tempo approaches the 200 mark. Start at 80 and work up to 208.

A metronome is a must-have for any musician. It will come in quite handy when practicing these exercises, and for benchmarking your progress as you increase your speed.

If you are currently without a metronome, you can use this sampling of Metallica songs and their opening tempos as a guide:

[Octopig]

Hi everyone! I found a great clip for you to dissect

The FASTEST Downpicking Song?!

It’s from Karri Hanninen YT channel. It’s a cover of Ordered to Thrash by Violator. You have here anything you need - high resolution, great camera angle and just phenomenal downpicking! The good stuff starts at 01:21. @Troy I think you’ll find it interesting.

Cheers!

[kounistou]

Great video. Great playing, good angles and good tone. Thanks for sharing!

His Metallica video is also really good. And to be honest, quite discouraging

[tommo]

Wow, very impressive although it still looks very athletic to me, i.e. it seems that he is powering through an inefficient movement, and this can only be maintained through a tough training regime I believe (which probably is inevitable with downpicking).

By the way that blue/natural Ibanez looks awesome, what model is it?

In the suggested youtube links I found this video explaining a nice trick to change the elbow position and “relax” a bit when downpicking is getting tiring. The idea seems to be to alternate between two slightly different postures to release some of the accumulated tension/lactate:

[Prlgmnr]

By the way that blue/natural Ibanez looks awesome, what model is it?

Looks like an RG652AHM-NGB

or RG652AHMFX-NGB if it’s a fixed bridge, I couldn’t quite make it out past his hand