Fast Downstrokes for Thrash Rhythms

[ASTN]

Well, about this kind of fast movement… It’s hard to explain. It’s like it has no connection with my ability to play music. When I play some melody I feel totally different. For example, after almost two monthes of training I now can play 6-note pattern with 85bpm (with good warmup). It would be about 125bpm in 16th, right? That’s what I call “my useful speed”. Though it’s kind of my maximum, because I play scales much slower.

…downpicking… It’s really hard. I can’t even imagine how you do it. May be it’s kinda physiological thing? I mean, someone could run fast, someone lift crazy weights… someone do mighty downstroke ))

[Troy]

It’s like it has no connection with my ability to play music.

Tremolo is still music! If you are good at unregulated tremolo, you can work on musical pieces which require it, like Misirlou. And then you can write your own tunes that have similar technical requirements. When you are learning technique, and you find you are good at something, definitely pursue it as far as it will go. Everything you can learn will help everything else eventually.

I could try record it, but I have cheap webcam only

Sure, let’s see what it looks like.

[ASTN]

P.S. I’d never thought my hand looks so awful with these trebly spider fingers …

[HappyMetal_Ben]

We definitely need a CTC episode on Downpicking technique, speed, and endurance building!

[BurningAXE]

Hey guys, I promised to keep you updated with my experiment(s) but I don’t want to occupy this thread so I created my own to abuse as much as I desire Anyone interested - head over there.

[kounistou]

Hi all,

This guy seems to have figured it out:

I gave it a quick try and I don’t see any improvement yet, mainly because I am still using big movements and also not consistently making the wrist rotation as he mentioned.

Anyway, his result looks great. So i will keep trying.

Great YT channel by the way!

[mortalis]

The book “The Art of James Hetfield” has the chapter “Picking Techniques” which says:

Don’t expect to be able to play at extreme tempos right away; that would be like a neophyte jogger trying to run a marathon. Work diligently, every day, and increase your tempos gradually and comfortably. There are two basic rules for achieving great speed with accuracy: use subtle and short movements of the pick, and keep your arm relaxed and in a comfortable position. Any tension in your hand or arm will ultimately hold you back from playing accurately at fast tempos. Remember that Hetfield uses downstrokes whenever possible; only at the fastest tempos will he use alternate picking.

Play this simple quarter-note exercise with successive downstrokes. Start at a comfortable tempo, perhaps 120, and work up to 208.

The eighth-note exercise can be played with successive downstrokes at slow to moderately fast tempos, but will require alternate picking once the tempo approaches the 200 mark. Start at 80 and work up to 208.

A metronome is a must-have for any musician. It will come in quite handy when practicing these exercises, and for benchmarking your progress as you increase your speed.

If you are currently without a metronome, you can use this sampling of Metallica songs and their opening tempos as a guide:

[Octopig]

Hi everyone! I found a great clip for you to dissect

The FASTEST Downpicking Song?!

It’s from Karri Hanninen YT channel. It’s a cover of Ordered to Thrash by Violator. You have here anything you need - high resolution, great camera angle and just phenomenal downpicking! The good stuff starts at 01:21. @Troy I think you’ll find it interesting.

Cheers!

[kounistou]

Great video. Great playing, good angles and good tone. Thanks for sharing!

His Metallica video is also really good. And to be honest, quite discouraging

[tommo]

Wow, very impressive although it still looks very athletic to me, i.e. it seems that he is powering through an inefficient movement, and this can only be maintained through a tough training regime I believe (which probably is inevitable with downpicking).

By the way that blue/natural Ibanez looks awesome, what model is it?

In the suggested youtube links I found this video explaining a nice trick to change the elbow position and “relax” a bit when downpicking is getting tiring. The idea seems to be to alternate between two slightly different postures to release some of the accumulated tension/lactate:

[Prlgmnr]

By the way that blue/natural Ibanez looks awesome, what model is it?

Looks like an RG652AHM-NGB

or RG652AHMFX-NGB if it’s a fixed bridge, I couldn’t quite make it out past his hand

[guitarenthusiast]

I’ve been working on my downpicking lately, taking a break from one year’s worth of tremolo picking lol.

Is there still a need for clips here? I can work on getting a few good angles this weekend for dissection. Strict downpicking on the first riff and then a combination of fast tremolo and downpicking on the second with dyads and open strings/palm muting. Both 200BPM+ish.

What I CAN say for sure is that the arm has no choice to be less “open” (is that supinated?) when engaging in fast downpicking, presumably so that wrist flexion/extension can occur to lift the pick out of the plane of the string in order to reset. This is very visible to me when I do it in slow motion.

[Octopig]

Clips are always welcome

[Octopig]

Interesting. Have you tried it?

[tommo]

Not in a systematic way, but it seemed to make sense theoretically! At the moment I’m still the type of guy that alternates MOP, but I am keeping an eye on this topic to see if a good “cheat” comes up

[shabtronic]

I’m a bit “late to the party” on this one, because I’m a new member - but I used to play in several thrash bands in the late 80’s.

And we never found any “cheats” for down stroke chugging. In fact in the 80’s because it was such a new sound - commercial amp’s within our budget just were not geared up for some chuggggggggin’ So we had to physically hit the strings harder, rather than super gain - and super deafening noisy feedback whilst playing live.

We used to play Anthrax/Metallica/Slayer stuff.

Anthrax - Madhouse, AIR and GungHo
Metallica - Creeping Death, MOP, One and Harvester of sorrow.

From memory it was all pure excitement/adrenaline/teenage angst (lol) that fueled the speed, with the hardest tune being Creeping Death for some reason! MOP was a real pain - but doable - C.D. just felt a lot harder to play - probably because of the mixed rhythm, chord stabs and trill. We started with Madhouse tho - and that’s a good intro into chuggg playing - because of the sparsity of chuggs in that tune. The machine gun riffs in One - were easy to play - but difficult to time and sync correctly - mainly because our drummer was crraaaap hahaha! The rhythm player in our band was super human - able to play anything downstroke related without breaking a sweat - and he had no tricks to do it - just pure full on muting power!

I think if I had to do all that again it would be easier - with higher quality/cheaper gear and FX - we would be “scuffers” rather than “chuggers!” if that makes sense.

[Tom_Gilroy]

Who sucks at downstrokes? Show us your bad thrash rhythms. For science!

I do. I can’t play repeated downstrokes anywhere near close to half my alternate picking speed.

What specifically are the benefits of playing with all downstrokes? Why work so hard?

[Dissonant_Timbres]

Dyers Eve really should be on that tempo list
It’s q = 195 and the main riff is probably the hardest Metallica riff.
Having the intro tempos for songs with slow intros is pointless
Fight Fire with Fire is q = 184

[BurningAXE]

Repeated downstrokes provide a consistent attack. Also, the downstrokes on palm-muted strings have a “better”, more aggressive tone. Don’t take my word for it, though. Record any cool Metallica riff (like the main one in MOP or the pre-chorus in CD) both ways and you’ll instantly hear the difference.