Fret Hand Speed Seems to Be Bigger Issue?

Playing Technique
#1

Long time player with MANY bad habits. I was never able to play very fast. I have gone through the Primer and it seems like I am a Upward Escape Motion picker. On “normal” playing I’m pretty sure I am string-hopping all over the place, although for much of my playing that does not seems like an issue as it gets done what I want to.

When I trem-pick I seem to have a combo elbow-wrist motion. I have been trying to work on using that motion more and incorporate it into my playing but I am finding that my fretting had just can’t keep up.

Everybody seems to say that their pick hand lags behind their fretting hand, but I can’t seem to get my old fingers to move as fast as the pick hand. Even when slowing down things seem to fall apart.

Any advice on getting the fretting hand faster and then working on coordination of the two hands?

#2

Hey, welcome! You’ve come to the right place :slight_smile:

I’d say before anything else, you should post a video of what you’re doing. What we see on here often is that the problems people explain are often different than the problems we see when looking at footage.

Here’s some tips on getting footage:

Before we look at your playing though, I can ask a few follow-up questions.

Though some can do this, typically these statements are at odds. If your elbow drives the motion, we’d expect the escape to be downward (DSX) but you’re saying you think your escape is upward (USX). Again, video footage will clear this up but unless your wrist or forearm becomes a ‘helper’ in a very specific way, your elbow is likely forcing DSX. I’m just mentioning this because that could be an issue. If you think you have a particular escape and you actually don’t, you may be fighting nature and that could be your problem.

Given that we’ve seen absolute beginners play a tremolo above 16ths @ 200bpm, I’d say the pick hand has the greater immediate potential for speed. So what you’re experiencing here I’d say is normal.

There are fretting hand implications too though. There’s a great post about how to make your fretting hand as fast as possible.

It’s long, but in summary, the absolute fastest fretting motions involve a combination of 3 fingers, in a very specific sequence, over and over again. It’s
index → middle → ring OR index → middle → pinky.

It doesn’t matter which of those you start with, so long as the order is consistent. So, index → middle → pinky is the same as middle → pinky → index; as is pinky → index → middle .

Also, the reverse of any of these is equivalent (i.e. index → middle → pinky is the same as pinky → middle → index)

The premise of this is that ring/pinky combinations are typically very weak since they share a tendon, and this ‘cycle’ of using three strong and relatively independent fingers over and over is efficient because each finger has the time (while the next 2 fingers in the cycle are playing) to recover before it’s needed again.

Anyway, welcome again and good luck. We’ll look forward to footage and I’m sure you’ll be moving forward!

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#3

Thanks so much for the response. I will try to film my playing (that is a painful reality to see sometimes).

I will dive into the link you included.

Thanks again!!

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#4

I believe the Fret Hand (left hand) is the more important half of guitar technique. It’s easier to build speed in the picking hand (right hand)*, even at lower skill levels. So that tends to be focused on more, in this forum especially. Not that picking is not important, but when you play single note lines (that are at least 50% of most solos), the speed limit is dictated by the fretting motion more than the picking motion. This is because hand sync is limited by the speed of fret hand physical skill (a combined control of finger movement, dexterity, strength, speed, and accuracy), and the speed of your mental power (a combination of visualized / audialized patterns, thoughts, feelings, memory, and nervous system).

Of course the intricacies of pick mechanics are covered in extreme detail here, but it’s a simpler movement once you find a motion that works for you. It’s ultimately just finding the optimal way to get the pick up and down on a string, and learning to efficiently change strings. The right hand can much more easily find a rhythmic groove with a smoothly flowing left hand, but having a weak left hand will prevent you from reaching your fastest picking speeds.

Another fact is that in ‘standard’ right handed orientation, the left hand is the ‘off hand’ or weaker hand for most players - this makes control more difficult and requires more training than the stronger hand. Without special training and focus on the fret hand alone, you might end up with just a strong tremolo, or an overly ‘stiff’ feel if you focus too much on picking every note. It will feel much more forced sounding, and IMO it makes playing more difficult than it has to be.

So Legato practice is the other thing that needs to be looked at. This is basically left hand solo (fret hand only). You are allowed to pick the first note of a string, but then you will connect all notes on the same string with only Hammers and Pull-offs or Slides (at least to start getting a grip on the technique).

I like practicing patterns with different notes per string (NPS): 2NPS (Trills, Pentatonics, and 7th Arps) | 3NPS Scales/Modes | 4NPS Expanded Scales/Modes | 1NPS + 2/3NPS Arpeggios.

Play Trills with 2 notes on 1 string - varying time from short to long, varying speed from slow to fast (or vice versa) - also between free time and in rhythm with metronome/drums. This will build speed, accuracy and endurance over time.

Playing trills between every finger pair builds dexterity and stamina: 1-2 | 1-3 | 1-4 | 2-3 | 2-4 | 3-4
This order is the easiest to hardest trill motion (or most to least ergonomic) IMO.

To take this up a level, use wider intervals (with a gradual progression. Ex: 1/2 step (m2) | 1 step (M2) | 1.5 step (m3) | 2 step (M3) | etc… as far as you can comfortably reach between each finger pair. You will not have the same reach between each finger pair - it’s easier to stretch with 1-4 or 1-3 than with 3-4. This can be dangerous if you over-extend in stretching, take this slow and stop if you feel pain.

3-note legato rolls on 1 string (descending pulloffs or ascending hammers) are a good level 1 exercise. Combine 2 strings for a 6 note descending or ascending pattern for level 2. Work up to 3 strings, then 4, 5, 6, etc… There are lots of combinations you can create and discover. Finger combos are: 1-2-3 | 1-2-4 | 1-3-4

You can take this up a level with 4-note per string patterns on 1-2-3-4
or with slide-shifts: 1-1-2-3 | 1-1-2-4 | 1-1-3-4 | 1-2-2-3 | 1-2-2-4 | 1-3-3-4 | 1-2-3-3 | 1-2-4-4 | 1-3-4-4
These are basically all the finger combos you will ever use in 3 + 4 NPS scale/mode patterns.

Eventually you can try string changes with only hammers (no pick) - this is the ultimate legato that Holdsworth, Van Halen, Michael Romeo, Brett Garsed, Marshall Harrison all do very well (among others). Michael Romeo has some incredible left hand tapped Arpeggios in videos that demo the 1NPS legato technique (see Guitar Chapter).

A big thing in the technique of Yngwie, EJ, Van Halen, Vai and many others - is combining legato with picked phrases. They often combine alternate or sweeping motions with pickstroke+pulloff or pickstroke+hammer combination (or multiple pulloffs/hammers/slides). Combining picking and legato gives different articulation, dynamics, and rhythmic feel compared to Legato only or Picking only techniques. There are mechanics that flow very smoothly in a combined left+right hand technique, where everything is highly synced and coordinated, but this takes a lot of skill. This is all covered through CtC material, especially the Volcano and Cascade seminars.

Note: my comment applies equally to left handed players, just flip the left+right hands.

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#5

Thanks so much Mojo. The input from you and Joebegly really help me see the path forward. I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on the more “administrative” side of practicing… that is, when I read books or watch videos or read advice like you provided it says “practice X, Y &Z”. I am always struggling with how to practically go about that.

Is it linear? (Meaning you master something before going on to the next - and yes, I see where you specifically called some of that out, but I’m talking more in general) How long do you devote to each exercise per day, per session?

Thoughts on speed vs perfection in practicing? It seems that in the “burst” approach you will be sloppy initially and then clean it up whereas the old school “get it perfect at slow speeds and SLOOOOWLY increase tempo” seems to contradict that.

How much time do you devote to “technique” practice vs. making music or learning songs/licks?

Any thoughts are welcome!

#6

for practicing interleaved practice is best. meaning more than one thing to work on. The bulletproof musician Noa Kageyama has been interviewed on this channel and also has a website that discusses what this would look like. But basically, you practice something for a bit say 3 to 5 minutes then move on to something else for same amount of time then go back to the first then do a third then do the second then do the first. Its been proven that sooner or later your practice will have diminishing returns so basically stop before that happens.

#7

Cool. I will search on Noa Kageyama and explore. As usual, the more I learn the more I don’t know.

Thanks!

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#8

Do you practice legato at all? My fastest picking is not picking, and just adding a couple hits here and there to vibrate the string. It does have a different sound, but it works.

One video that really stuck with me recently is Steve Vai’s Napsack. He was forced to just do legato, and it’s really awesome.

#9

I have started doing the classic variations (1-2-3-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4, etc) both legato and alternate picking.

That Vai song is unbelievable. I can never decide if I am more inspired or discouraged when I see/hear players with that kind of amazing skill.

I find when I play at my current fastest speeds I have combos of picking, legato, and even economy picking that if I had been asked if I was doing it I would have said “no” actually thinking I was alternate picking, but when I really look at it I find I am doing economy picking here and there subconsciously.

I have always felt that people have a personal “max speed” based on muscle makeup and other physiological factors. I may be fooling myself and using that as an excuse as to why I am slower than many, but I have been playing for decades and have generally had the same top speed for most of it.

I have always started practice regimens with the best intentions (I am going to do this for an hour a day every day!) but invariably miss a day or two and then it is gone. I suppose I just need to dedicate myself to putting in the work and see what happens.

Thanks for the advice!

#10

One thing you can try if you’re not already is putting your right hand behind your back or wherever comfortable that takes it out the picture. I find if you’re in the standerd position even if you’re not picking, the mind is still kind of expecting to use the right, if you completely remove that hand, and possibly even tie it down somehow, it has an effect of letting you foucus on the left more. You could sit on your hand or something and really make a point of it not being used.

#11

You could grab a pad and paper and write your memoirs with that hand while your left hand legatos.

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#12

That is probably better advice than you know. I find myself picking things even when I am intentionally trying not to. I was working on a lick with a “hammer out of nowhere” ( 12-14-15-14-12 on e string then hammer on b 15 and repeat) where you only pick the very first note and I could not help myself from picking the d on the b string most of the time. So frustrating when your hands are not listening!!

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#13

I don’t know if it could be helpful or not regarding the guitar playing, but after an accident and followed surgery I almost couldn’t use my left hand properly. So I used a dumbel (not a very heavy one) and tried to spin a pen in my hand. I still can’t do it (pen-spinning) properly )) but those measures improved my control over my left hand drastically. At least I can play my guitar up to some point.
As for preciseness I used staccato hammer-ons and played scales, melodies, different stuff with left hand only. It helped kinda… But left hand is still the main issue for me.

There’s a thing that I always do when I’m struggling with some pattern: I try to play it using legato only. It allows me to see whether the problem is in my left hand or not. Because sometimes it’s not that obvious.

#14

I find doing guitar in the dark is also helpful. I think the visuals we always see trigger habits.
Closing the eyes is ok, but you’ve an option to open the eyes and that is distracting. Doing it fully in the dark forces you to go by feel.

#15

I know this is a newbie question, but when practicing any of these sequences, should the index finger be kept down all the time or only fretted when needed? I was taught decades ago to keep it down in these situations. But in trying the stuff here, I seem to find it causes fatigue to do so. Thoughts?

#16

I suppose there’s some debate on the subject of anchoring the 1st finger.

Tom Quayle thinks it’s a “bad habit”. He makes a lot of good points in this video: anchoring creates a tendency towards over-tension, squeezing the neck too hard; it prevents smooth transitions on string changes; it can create a less fluid ‘stuck in position’ approach.

However I don’t agree that anchoring is always an inefficient mechanic. You might notice that Tom uses an all hammers approach - his descending legato is actually a hammer on, not a pull off. So this lifting and hammering on each note is a specific kind of technique, one he’s developed to a very high level. For a more traditional pull-off technique, anchoring is easier because you already have the fingers in position as you pull-off from the higher notes.

For example, Yngwie (and many other virtuoso players) uses a pull-off based approach. Even when picking every note, he anchors the 1st finger in position shifting sequences like this:

So I think there isn’t a right or wrong way to do something, as long as you’re making efficient and coordinated movements. Try different approaches and see what gives you more control.

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#17

It’s not a newbie question. Even ranked professionals are debating about that sometimes ))
I guess the best answer is: try practcing both. Sooner or later you’ll end up with the most comfortable solution… or may be you won’t. Because I noticed that I use anchoring in some cases and don’t use it in another.