Another great post/article @Tom_Gilroy, thanks again for sharing your research work
This time it took me a bit longer to digest all the arguments.
The only thing left unclear for me is: is it really possible to perform a smooth downward sweep with the elbow mechanic? If I try to incorporate that within my elbow-UWPS-DSX technique, I get hopelessly stuck most of the time.
But then again I don’t use Shawn’s grip nor do I pick with little depth.
Another question: did you figure out the exact picking sequence for Shawn’s famous “outside sound” diminished lick(s)? He claims at some point that he can do it picking every note, but I am not sure he does - well at least I hope so because that would be scary
For a 2 string sweep I believe it’s absolutely possible. When then suspected elbow movement kicks in in Shawn’s playing, his picking plane seems to be parallel to the plane of the strings, and the plane rotations we see in his wrist based picking seems to disappear entirely. My belief is that he’s double-trapped, and his string changes are ascending sweeps or swiped outside changes. The shallow depth and the lack of an effective DSX pickslant eliminate the garage spikes problem.
On Power Licks, I’m sure that diminished lick is:
down, hammer, hammer, up, down, up
There’s no visible picking movement on the 2nd and 3rd notes and there’s no audible pick attack either when the audio is slowed down. When he says to pick in such a way that it makes a snap, he performs the coordination a little more slowly, and those strokes don’t seem to be there.
Oh I see, of course it’s gotta be the same as what you outlined for the scalar ascendeing 6s! That explains why he can perform an almost exxagerated rotation to reach the higher string: he has loads of time to do it while hammering the two notes.
Cool write up! Basically I sat down to practice my technique this morning and after reading two of your posts about Shawn Lane, I came away with “do less picking and more hammer ons and hammer ons from nowhere!” If SLane is using a lot of hammer ons then I have to get that up to par! Looks like it’s time to add something else to my practice repertoire. Thanks for the insights. Now on to read your Holdworth hammer on from nowhere thread!
The footage we have of him obviously speaks for itself, but it’s cool that he was aware of this and that it was quite intentional. Even enough to pass onto others in informal lessons.
Also, on a related note, I wanted to ask you if you’ve come to any conclusions on which fretting hand finger joints are most responsible for the fastest movements? For example, is the motion driven from the knuckle joint (matacarpophangeal) alone? Do the smaller joints in the finger also move in support, or should they remain fairly fixed? How does curvature impact efficiency, etc? Watching Shawn’s playing, it sort of looks to me like each finger moves as a unit. Some have more curvature than others. The pinkie looks flat most of the time. Middle finger curves a little (makes sense, it is longer). Index is essentially a moving capo that’s always ‘ready’ and doesn’t really appear to ‘play’ for most of it…just drags around, other than some isolated spots:
I realize that’s just one example. You’ve looked at his work exhaustively so I was curious if you noticed any patterns or ‘rules’ to his left hand motion mechanics. It’s possible you’ve listed them in other threads and I’ve missed them.
Yes, I was aware of this article, though I discovered it after studying the anatomy of the hands and studying footage of Shawn’s playing.
I also think it’s very interesting that he was consciously aware of the his preference for (1 2 3) and (1 2 4) combinations, but I think the reason given in that article is off the mark. It really isn’t an issue of strength, and the comparison to Django and Hendrix seems patently ludicrous to me.
The simple fact is that (3 4) combinations are inherently more strenuous than other combinations for anatomical reasons.
Yes, I do.
Almost entirely, for several reasons.
Try grasping something (a broom handle, for example) as fast as you possible can. The hand can close extremely quickly, this is one of the fundamental tasks our hands are adapted for.
A fast grasping action involved a concerted contraction of the flexor digitalis group. When this action is analysed, we see that although every joint of each of the fingers begins to flex, the most notable degree of flexion occurs at the metacarpophalangeal joints. When these joints reach their maximum degree of flexion, the proximal interphalangeal joints begin to flex more quickly, until they too reach maximal flexion. Finally, the distal interphalangeal joints begin to flex more quickly, securing the grip and completing the grasping action.
In this manner, the tips of the fingers describe the widest possible arc as quickly as possible.
Trying to flex the proximal interhalangeal joints without flexing the metacarpophalangeal joint requires the engagement of the extensor group. Trying to quickly flex and extend with the proximal interphalangeal joints only requires the constant activation of the extensor group, which leads to fatigue. The extensor engagement also slows the flexion movement since they oppose the flexors. Finally, the shorter distance from the proximal interphalangeal joint to the finger tip results in a smaller arc, and hence less distance is travelled for the same degree of flexion.
The EDCs I’ve outlined are essentially repeated grasp and release actions, where the grasp and release are skewed so the fingers close from 1st to 4th or from 4th to 1st. They’re not only not hindered by limitations on finger independence, they actually exploit the the fact that the fingers are not independent.
When the finger frets the finger follows it’s natural flexion path as closely as possible. When the fingers lift they follow their natural extension path as closely as possible. This allows for the rapid firing of antagonistic movements.
A straighter finger describes a wider arc, which allows greater distance to be travelled with a smaller degree of flexion/extension at the metacarpophalangeal joint.
That said, it’s important to understand that the amount of curvature is a property of the hand at rest and how it is applied to the guitar. Trying to control curvature without altering posture requires tension.
This is largely true, because his hand at rest was quite open and the metacarpophalangeal joints were almost neutral in his playing posture. Since he didn’t need much flexion to make a large fretting action due to his posture, there’s minimal change at the other joints.
Actually, the “moving capo” idea for the index finger isn’t correct. Fretting constantly with the index finger would require a constant tension in the flexor group which would slow the lifting of the other fingers. Shawn’s index finger is in flux between flexion and relaxation and extension. Granted, not much extension (not much is required, after all).
Another interesting thing to point out is that while Shawn hammered a huge proportion of the notes he played, he used pull-offs with much less. Shawn rarely played “rolling” legato passages like
-5-6-8-6-5-6-8-6- etc
1h2h4p2p1h2h4p2p
Where the lower fingers fret continually during the action of the higher fingers. While man guitarists can play these rolls at typical “fast” speeds (Satriani, Vai, etc), literally nobody plays them as fast as Shawn could play his patterns. These rolling patterns are simply less efficient than the EDCs, both due to inefficient cycling and the tension required to fret the lower notes during the action of the fretting fingers.
@Tom_Gilroy I just want to say props for putting so much time into this, and for the level of detail!
I took some lessons from a great teacher and one of the first things he did was tell me about Shawn Lane and teach me this picking style (he used it himself pretty exclusively) and it definitely felt smoother with a rolled off attack. I tried it for a bit (over a decade ago) and didn’t stick with it, but on a whim I tried it last night and sure enough it’s still something I can do. I still prefer the way I pick now for the attack and ease of switching into heavy rhythms, but that’s just me.
Hilariously, I ended up being in a hardcore band where the other guitarist used the same picking style and really made it work for aggressive music.
Thanks for the reply Tom, great insight as always.
Regarding that index finger not remaining static, are you saying it should always lift, emptying its tension, after it plays? Or is this just if a position shift occurs? For example, if I were attempting to play one of those boring Al Di Meola patterns as fast as possible (no legato, all picked), just staying on one string, something like 10 12 14 10 12 14 over and over…should the index finger remain fretted the whole time? I can see how if this were done for a long span that it could contribute to some tension, and may curtail stamina or speed to fade. But then again having that finger down already I would think would allow me to play that note more quickly every time it comes up, since it’s already fretted. But maybe that’s not true, since you’re saying it could make it tougher for my pinkie to release as quickly as it could with that index held down. That’s a question, not a challenge to your theories BTW I want to make sure I am understanding that. Everything else I follow.
Here’s another interesting thing I’ve noticed about Shawn’s playing and it is also seen in Zakk Wylde’s playing as well. They both use unusual patterns for three note per string scale shapes. Most of us learn 3NPS scale shapes in a very “mathematical” way- by strictly playing major scales in a 3NPS manner you end up with 7 total unique patterns, one for each mode. However, I think Zakk and Shawn (and also Yngwie in some of the CTC Seminar examples) took an approach to 3NPS playing that was ergonomic instead of strictly following the scale. Basically adding a repeated note into the patterns if it facilitated faster and more ergonomic playing. Take a look at these examples from Zakk to see what I mean. I haven’t gotten around to practicing these but basically they greatly simplify the shifting by adding repeated notes.
I wouldn’t say always, as there are specific situational fretting sequences where continuing to fret with a lower finger during the action of the higher finger is appropriate. However, the vast majority of Shawn’s fastest lines are not based upon those situational sequences. They’re based on the EDC principle.
I’m quite comfortable making the general assertion that in the specific context of lines derived from the EDCs, the lower fingers should release during the action of the higher fingers. Thinking of this as a “lift” might be a little misleading, as it might suggest more extension of the lower finger than is required. A “lift” is obvious when fretting a new note on another string or another fret, but the action is very subtle where the same note will be fretted again. Releasing the tension is probably a more helpful conceptualization of the action.
That specific sequence would most likely be a (1 2 4) EDC. The index finger should release during the duration of the note fretted with the middle finger.
Possibly. The flexors are typically much stronger than the extensors, so there may not be any fatigue to the flexors. However, tension in the flexors makes the job of the extensors more difficult, and I can definitely see that leading to extensor fatigue.
In specific situations, this can be the case. I don’t believe this to be the case in the context of lines based upon EDCs.
That is precisely the problem, though Isuspect a continually fretting index finger would have a more pronounced effect in slowing the lifting of the middle finger.
As a general observation, the index finger is by the most independent of the fingers (except of course for the thumb). It seems to me that limiting it’s role to that of a “moving capo” is terribly sub-optimal.
Yes, I thought this was pretty well known. The doubled note and its effects on the note content of Shawn’s digital sequences is notable in his playing.
Great. Thanks again Tom. I am very interested in this topic. Troy recently helped me tap into my fastest default picking movement. My problem is now is that my left hand can’t keep up or sync totally, so your principles are going to be golden in that quest. How’s the book coming along, by the way?
I have several chapters written and a full comprehensive plan of the content. I’ve decided it is probably for the best to focus on a first volume on fretting principles, leaving other topics to another volume.
I’ve been taking a break from it for the past few weeks. I had been getting a bit tight in my shoulders and forearms from typing, and I wanted to spend a little time letting some ideas solidify and try to apply them to my own playing.
The COVID situation here in Ireland is improving. We’re out of lockdown. My girlfriend had time off from work for the past few weeks, so I’ve been focused on spending time with her before she has to spend some time abroad before the end of the year.
I’ll re-focus on writing again soon enough. I’m just taking some time to enjoy doing things I hadn’t been able to do in months like jiu-jitsu and climbing.
Is there somewhere to support you financially or otherwise with the book, like Patreon or something? I always enjoy reading your thorough posts and looking forward to purchasing your book!
No, not at this time. While I’m grateful for the offer and I’m very glad you appreciate my writing, I’d rather not take money from anybody without delivering a product or service.
Re-reading this thread just now. Was there any rhyme or reason to when Shawn would use hammer ons or hammer ons from nowhere when going into a sequence?
What I found interesting was the five pentatonic positions Shawn illustrated in Power Solos. The fact that he would frequently start phrases on the second finger because often the first and second fingers were parallel to one another in that example and he’d use the pinky as a kind of fulcrum or teeter totter for his scale shapes. So tremelo picking scale shapes and having a teeter totter type affair happening to execute some of those scale patterns was a bit of a revelation like he was revealing a lot even if at first it seemed like it wasn’t a big secret. He was right about the whole needing to flatten a finger if you did it with first finger first. Did anyone else notice this and find it helpful trying to use the second finger?
Yes, this is something I’ve spent a lot of time reflecting on. With Shawn’s fretting mechanics, the (1 2 3) combinations for pentatonics are very powerful.
That said, the rolling approach is also very powerful and versatile, more so than Shawn realised. It’s at the very core of Eric Johnson’s approach.
You might like the Higher Landrons article I wrote.
You know, interesting thing I have noticed in my own playing - and maybe it partially coincides with the topic here - but when I do “elbow” it takes DSX very naturally, and of course it would. So all of my DSX stuff flows quite nicely. BUT a lot of ascending “sweep” driven stuff seems to struggle, so I kick in this “other” thing, it’s actually my shoulder and while it’s quite effective it’s kind of a short burst kind of thing, maybe 5 seconds of consistent useage and then stuff like this works;
Very fast and pretty clean, but tracking is a bit weak and it’s most effective with more notes on a string. There’s a few other things I can do with it also that are pretty “usx” that shouldn’t be possible with Elbow. And I guess this is something Zakk Wylde does also. So while Shawn was USX with the ability to maybe do this weirdo shoulder driven DSX, Mine’s backwards - DSX and the weirdo shoulder thing gives me moments of USX. I wish I would have known this way back when, but that’s okay - knowledge is power and it’s cool to have it in the toolkit.
PS for the person with the deleted post looking for Tom’s tempos I have him on video doing 16ths comfortably on each string at VERY fast 200+ tempos. Not that Tom cares, but I, for one can corroborate from my time with Tom as a guitar coach that he is ridiculously fast with the 'ole picking hand. I mean this of course in the nicest way possible, but I felt it needed to be stated.
@stickyresin I’m gonna assume that @Tom_Gilroy sees this as a win regardless, since you keep bumping his topic, lol.
Regardless if his claim of picking is real or not, the things he’s proposed (mainly EDC) have been tried out by other players and vetted, so his contributions have been widely well received. Have you tried them out?
I always enjoy reading your thorough posts and looking forward to purchasing your book!