That looks pretty good. But you’re going to have no muting that way, and you also need to be able to do it fast. Which means just trying to “go fast”. That will probably result in motions that aren’t as huge. I really wouldn’t spend a lot of time at this type of picking speed, it’s only going to fool you with motions that might not work when they get faster. But you are on the right track with your spirit of experimentation. Just do so at faster speeds.
Yeah this was just for demonstration purposes, and I’m still trying to unlearn the wrist muscle memory but I hope to get back to you with a video of this at a high speed soon.
I really appreciate the amount of time you’ve spent on this post. Thanks again, Troy!
Not a problem. You’re not “unlearning” wrist motion. You don’t have to give up what you already know, you’re just adding to it. And the only way that can be done in the initial stages is fast. That feeling of “it’s easy” that you get with air picking is what you’re looking for on the guitar, and slow playing just doesn’t feel that way. In the early stages of learning a new motion, the feedback of feeling easy and fast is the only reliable guide you have, so start with that.
2 Likes
“Unlearn” was probably the wrong term haha, I just mean ignore it. You can see in the video that I revert back to it several times.
And I fully agree with you on the fast thing. I think I need to get the “feeling easy” feeling on one string down before I attempt this lick on two, and then I suppose I’ll find out if it’s possible or not
Just to confirm what @Troy said, my version of picking is upstroke escape only with swiping when doing ascending downstroke string changes. For descending three notes per string scales there is a pull off instead of the downstroke when switching strings.
I found ways of getting DSX from the same form, but that have always required obvious wrist motion which for me has got lower speed limit and feels worse. Also there is off course the possibility of using Yngwie style downstroke sweeping for ascending scales. So there are ways of getting away without swiping but I haven’t figured out how to keep the rotational motion for normal scale playing without swiping.
Looking forward to your experimentation! You might come up with something amazing!
1 Like
Looking at this video
for example, it seems Wes is not a strict forearm rotation player. I see wrist/forearm as well as some finger (thumb) movement. The main motion appears to be classic wrist/forearm. He also seems to do a lot of sweeping and legato, ie by no means is he picking everything. I could not find any strict 3nps playing, so I don’t know how he would tackle that, though I guess a Yngwie-style approach is likely.
I’ll ask him for a clip of his 3nps playing next lesson I have. But I most definitely have seen him pick those scales alternate, using the rotating the whole forearm approach that I used in the last video I posted.
And yeah I shouldn’t have said he is strictly forearm, with palm-muting obviously you’ve got to have some wrist movement but when it comes to unmuted picking runs he appears to be all rotation
Here’s a vid I just took of changing strings with rotation. I’m like 95% I’m using strict rotation but I’m open to points that prove I’m not. Please excuse the slop haha
Keep in mind I’m using the clunkier, slower type of rotation that I think is from the muscles further back in the forearm. But once I get the faster rotation down, I believe the string changing mechanics used here should still apply.
I don’t mean to disprove the merits of forearm rotation! I’m sure it’s a viable technique. I just wanted to point to the fact that it may not be what Wes is doing, at least not most of the time. If you can find a way to make it work, by all means go for it!
1 Like
Yeah I understand! I’m just saying, I’m pretty sure changing between upward and downward is very possible using this method. It’s what he taught me, and based on everything he’s told and shown me, it’s what he’s doing as well. But yeah unfortunately there aren’t really any clips of him doing a 3nps scale on youtube so I’ll ask him for a video of this next lesson I have
Hi @mattc_guitar, I’m working on this technique as well. At my best I can currently play at about 200bpm, single string single note only, so my word isn’t gold, but here are some thoughts anyway:
- I find that adding a slight stress on the beat, or every 2 beats at faster tempo, ensures that my wrist is kept loose. This is still new to me, but I think it’s good. To add the stress, I do slightly more “wind up” on the previous stroke. At 200 bpm it’s hard to do, but I think it’s good to try at lower tempos.
- Your pick seems to be hitting the string at about a 45 degree angle or so (i.e., the swing goes from near the neck to near the bridge), due to the ulnar wrist deviation and elbow position (coming in over near the top of the guitar). With less of an angle, i.e. a flatter pick attack, your pick has a shorter distance to travel through the strings (b/c all of the motion will be perpendicular to the string). Perhaps you could try less wrist deviation, or move your elbow down, so that your pick travels closer to the perpendicular. I’m doing this for my acoustic fast picking. In addition to a quicker pass through the string with the pick, it means less drag against the pick, and so less energy spent compensating.
Cheers and best wishes, looks great! jz
1 Like
Thanks for those tips! I notice I tend to count my air forearm rotation by stressing the downbeat, so I think I might already be doing this. But I also think this is causing me to get tripped up on the upstrokes, since they are a tiny bit weaker.
The tip about the pick angle is spot on. At first the only way I could perform the motion with the pick having any contact with the strings, was by turning the pick around to the round end, and just sliding across (i.e. minimized resistance). So yes I fully agree that changing the pick angle to reduce drag across the pick will help.
Here’s a bit of an update for those who come across this. I’m starting to have some success with bringing the motion to the guitar. It just took a few days of perseverance and shutting off my brain haha. Now the plan is to get it consistent, and not with my picking hand completely floating and pointed straight at the floor lol
Nice update. I’ve watched several players with this style on youtube. They all have their forearm resting on the guitar, gives them a nice anchor point. Also, it changes the angle, so the hand isn’t pointing at the floor:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFwP-ne_d8U&t=31s
- Here’s Troy G himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkbPKna7uIM&t=5m40s
I’ve seen some players actually drag their ring and pinky fingers across the guitar face, under the top E string, as a point of reference (the tops of the fingers, not the pad). It adds a lot of stability.
I do the forearm anchoring, otherwise the arm is far too floaty for me at the moment. Perhaps later I’ll be able to have floating arm. I haven’t decided yet on adding the 3rd/4th finger glide on the body.
For upstroke weakness, I find that the wrist bend (see the troy video at 5:35) helps, I believe this is because it keeps pushing the pick “down” into the guitar body, which counteracts the push away from the body that the downstroke creates (think of the string as a launch ramp, your pick is getting pushed away). This is my current theory, anyway.
Best wishes! z
1 Like
Its cool you take lessons from Wes! He’s a monster player and love his playing with Keith!!
1 Like
Yeah it’s interesting, I don’t think I’m wired for finger-resting method to work for me. Even air picking, I can get the motion going at all if the fingers are dragging across a surface.
Currently working on the anchored forearm, since that’s how I intend to play otherwise my shoulder would get real tired. I can get the motion going no problem with the anchor, so it’s just a matter of making it click like I (sort of) did with the floating arm.
I’ll try the wrist bend and see what that does!
Yeah he’s awesome! Amazing player/writer, and a wizard of a teacher too. He was calling out problems with technique I didn’t know I had, all from a webcam. He’s definitely had the most impact on my playing out of any teacher I’ve had
For me the difference in tension between air picking and actual picking comes from trying to hold your hand in a position where the pick will contact the string. I’ve found that if I let the motion feel like it originates with my hand and not my forearm I am more accurate and have less tension. My forearm above my wrist is relaxed. My forearm rotates and it appears that I use my forearm but I don’t. The forearm rotation is a reaction to my hand moving side to side. I feel like I am wrist picking but it looks like forearm rotation. I struggled with tension for a long time and this technique has pretty much eliminated it. Once I am warmed up I no longer have any tension.
1 Like
Yeah this is spot on and what I’m currently trying to do. The technique looks very busy with all the forearm movement but you’re right, it’s super relaxed and only a few small forearm muscles are engaged, all the excess movement is just reactionary.
I think I built some bad habits by focusing on the forearm too much. It’s a hard thing to do to just focus on a specific part of your forearm, so I think the answer like you said is to make the motion feel like its coming from the hand (without being wrist motion)
It’s not the EVH tremolo picking kind of rotation. There is definitely a different group of muscles working. It’s more like the reverse dart throwing motion Troy talks about. If I’m rotating my forearm I’m doing it unconsciously. I’ve also found it helps to just think about picking either side of the string, or the top of the string. If I want down stroke escape I think about picking the top side of to string, upstroke escape the bottom of the string. If I need double escape I think about picking 90 degrees to the guitar body. I need to film and see what is happening. That may seem obvious but the point is I don’t think about mechanically how to do it, I just do it and let my brain figure it out.
I really struggled with right hand and have made tremendous improvements with this stuff. Thanks to Troy for figuring this stuff out.
I took a handful of lessons with him around a year ago. Dude completely elevated my playing, music theory knowledge and technique. Awesome guitarist and super insightful guy. Honestly those lessons were the best thing I ever did for my playing.
1 Like