How do you get started writing a song?

General Music Discussion Songwriting
#33

This is a very good question! The answer you’ll usually get is: “the rule is that there is no rule” :rofl: … or some boring stuff about hitting chord tones on downbeats, which usually leads to uninspiring stuff.

So… I got no answer but I just made up some random exercises:

  • Take a melody that you like, and find a cool way to modify it (change rhythm, tonality, add/remove notes, whatever!)

  • generate a completely random chord progression, and create a simple melody that goes well above it. You can start with steady 8th notes and go from there.

  • generate a random arrangement of 5 or 6 notes (with dice, picking up pieces of paper, whatever!), then supply rhythm, underlying chords, build variations etc.

  • generate a random rhythm and then put notes on it

  • take a famous melody and play it backwards, then find a way to modify it to make it nice

  • copy the rhythm of a famous melody, change all the notes and harmony. IF the original was happy try to make it sad, etc.

Now some words from someone who (unlike me) can actually do this :rofl:

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#34

Aside from Tommo’s good answer, my sort of joking but mostly serious answer would be to review the work of Tchaikovsky. It is just an opinion and others may not share it, but I think he is the greatest melody writer ever. Studying his note choice, phrase structure and the underlying harmony (and counterpoint) in his compositions yield great findings.

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#35

i have never really checked out tchaikovsky (reading on wiki about him), which songs do you find you listen to the most?

I just don’t understand it, as I have never really met someone who creates music to sort of pick their brain, or better yet just hang around them to see how they tick. I am like my dad very analytical so you can get that well creativity gets thrown out the window fast. So even if I do start to get creative, the analytical thing starts creeping in quickly so we will begin the pattern embellishment thing way to quickly. Then the critical part comes in why did I do that note, or that is silly it doesn’t make sense to play this note, or why am I doing this rhythm. Do i even know the notes? I hear nothing inside. Is music even my calling? haha this is the story of my brain. Sure I could free hand a drawing, maybe even come up with something as a one off of some other thing or creation someone else did, maybe rearrange this viola! haha just kidding. But to just spawn something out of thin air I ain’t got it. And it feels like it stems from maybe not being playful enough with the notes of a tetrachord/arpeggio from within. And here is that thinking that I need to be in some soundscape first to even start the melody which is already setting off a bad path possibly… But this is why I said maybe I should seek outside help from a phsyciatrist so we might get to the roots of my feelings so i know how to even express them but i might not like the outcome cause it might not be music. haha these are my musings

maybe the key is to just meditate on a bass synth drone note or tanpura, and just see (well not see cause its music so listen would be best put in this sentence :stuck_out_tongue: ) if i can let something manifest on its own? cause as long as the note has all the overtones present i won’t be tempted to stay in major, minor, or phrygian

#36

My favorites are the Nutcracker (cliche, I know but it’s just bloody brilliant!), and then his symphonies. I think his best are (in order) his 6th, 5th and 4th. I’ve never checked out his first three symphonies but I remember reading he wasn’t as mature of a composer when he wrote them so I didn’t bother lol. His first piano concerto is considered great also. I am not as familiar with that as I am the symphonies but I do remember liking that a lot too.

After that, his other stuff that is well known and also full of great melodies would be Sleeping Beauty, and Swan Lake.

I guess in the context of your melody question though, maybe none of this matters lol! You want more like a step by step way of writing a melody maybe? In that case I’d say to check out the type of stuff they teach in a college level theory course. Most of those “rules”, from what I was told, were derived from consistencies found it Bach’s works. It will have stuff like which notes should be played over certain chords, if there is a ‘leap’ in the melody it should be followed by a ‘step’ in the opposite direction (unless outlining an arpeggio). Real limiting stuff like that :slight_smile: Still not a bad place to start because from there you can break the rules intentionally and be aware of the consequences.

I for some reason think the greats wrote their melodies much more from ‘within’ though. Paul McCartney and John Lennon gave us some of the best melodies ever too and they didn’t even know any theory in a traditional sense. They just knew what sounded good and did as much of that as they could. I know early on they had a policy where they wouldn’t write down their songs because they figured if they, the songwriters, couldn’t remember what they wrote and needed to write stuff down to remember it, that they couldn’t expect their listeners to remember it either lol! Very practical.

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#37

it is like being handed a blank piece of paper and a pencil, and you just doodle. but what to doodle? that is like melody, whether its great or not. the moment you draw something that is your melody. i get it more theory can help create better structured sounds inside a tuning system, but the idea itself has to manifest otherwise it is more like reverse engineering the process of finding the melody by listening only to me playing random stuff on an instrument against a drone. this is where my minds pitch sense lacks as i don’t normally just think about pitches in my mind, and try to rearrange them without an instrument present. sure i could sing a scale or arpeggio in my mind, but i wouldn’t be able to rearrange the solfege syllables in a random order without the help of my instrument.

dont get me wrong i love a good treasure hunt, i could plug in my behringer td3 and have it pick some random patterns. and this would please my ears at some point because i would find a good pattern of notes that it gave me randomly, almost magically.

#38

I’ve started songs almost every possible way under the sun. I find that my best (read: catchiest + most immediate) stuff happens when I start with a fun hook, usually something that would be a sing-along moment for a chorus, or perhaps a rhythmic hook.

But I’ve done all kinds of stuff with varying success–singing a melody idea or even a riff into into my phone while sitting at a red light, noodling on the guitar, catching a wind of inspiration while learning another song on the piano, intentionally thinking OK I need a fast song that would make an attention-grabbing opening track and starting with the end already in mind, whatever.

The least-efficient ways of writing for me is generally sitting with the guitar and noodling, trying to randomly come up with riffs. As soon as I stopped doing this I had way more success with writing (and finishing!) songs

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#39

My “process” goes back to elementary school. Bored in class. Repeating short phrases to myself with a strong rhythm. (The first one I remember was "ro-tat-in’ ra-dar, du dunna du duh.) I would sing that to myself over and over. I didn’t think of this as songwriting, it was just “something to do.” But I did it a lot over the years and now it’s second nature.
Another thing I did was to make up new words (on the fly) to popular songs my big sister played on her record player.
Neither of these exercises focuses on the guitar. And another one that doesn’t is keeping one’s ear open for arresting phrases, puns, or great lines. I jot them down in a pocket notebook that goes with me everywhere.

On the guitar side, I play without thinking and if something catches my ear, I repeat it, tinker around with it. Maybe it will turn into an intro, a turnaround, a backing part, a main riff, maybe nothing at all.
A good groove is a great way to start a song.
There are a lot of ways to do it. And if you’re happy with your results, halleluiah. If not, well, mess around until something sticks, then stick with it until you’ve got a song. (Easier said than done, I know.) I think of it less as a process than a habit.

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#40

I only play other people’s music, but I think that I know exactly how I’d write a song, and that would be starting with constraints, like the lyrics and general structure. For example, let’s say that I want something metal involving (say) uh… finding a burning a coven of witches, yeah, that should do. To get initial lyrics, I’d use something like OpenAI’s free ChatGPT with a query like this: “write a rap song about burning a coven of witches.” Then, I could clean up the lyrics, and start to write the music. Here is the starting point, I could see a song eventually emerging

Verse 1:
I’m on a mission, with a vision
To rid the world of a coven of witches
Their spells and curses, have caused much misery
But now it’s time for them to feel the heat

Chorus:
Burn, burn, burn the witches
Send them back to the pits of hell
Their dark magic, no longer thrives
As the flames consume their coven alive

Verse 2:
I won’t stop until they’re all gone
These witches have caused far too much harm
Their wicked ways, must come to an end
As I set fire to their coven, my friends

Chorus:
Burn, burn, burn the witches
Send them back to the pits of hell
Their dark magic, no longer thrives
As the flames consume their coven alive

Bridge:
I won’t rest, until they’re all ashes
Their evil deeds, no longer will flourish
I’ll make sure, they feel the pain
As I burn their coven, down in flames

Chorus:
Burn, burn, burn the witches
Send them back to the pits of hell
Their dark magic, no longer thrives
As the flames consume their coven alive

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#41

That’s both hilarious and a genuinely interesting idea.

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#42

The day isn’t over yet, but that is a serious contender for the coveted “post of the day” award. Funny stuff : -)

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#43

Amazing :sweat_smile: I’ve wasted hours trying to write acceptable lyrics….

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#44

Feel a bit bad for the witches though! Maybe they were just misunderstood :sweat_smile:

Edit: I actually decided to side with the witches so I need to write a song about vengeance for their unjust murder!

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#45

Good point. Maybe I’ll just “write” a part II to this called Revenge of the Witches

Joking aside I found it tough to write lyrics and then come up with melodies that fit. It can make for some awkward phrasing. Melody first, then the iterative process of putting in lyrics (which may dictate occasional and slight changes to the melody)

Another option is melody with nonsensical placeholder lyrics. Paul McCartney’s “Yesterday” got started with him singing “Scrambled eggs. Oh my baby how I love your legs”

Edit: @tommo I just read your edit. Great minds, innit?

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#46

I find I can carry on a song from a short beat or vibe. Almost like various AI are doing now, giving them a prompt and it flows from there. So for me I start with something that I’ve been playing during my noodling. And with some rythem added it blossoms into it’s own thing. I think thats how most songs are done, it creates itself in a way. As long as you Don’t try to force ideas into it.
I think thats probably whats been talked about before, so ultimately my ideas come from noodling. Turning that issue of playing the same thing out habit into a positive. I also find if you go through that process of creating songs from your overplayed licks, that you create new licks that you may start to do too often, but you can just keep going with that process and your noodling will be far more varied, as building on your noodling you create new noodles and soon you’ll have an Asian dish of some kind.

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#47

I think this is about as far as my musical mind skill goes, and the way I do it is it has to be in the morning for some reason I think this has to do with my age, but my mind is more fresh during the morning as well as I don’t feel as critical so it’s more carefree. I noodle, but I kinda chill noodle, and let the next note, pattern, arpeggio, or sequence come from my mind as I go. This would be how I find new lick ideas, but it still doesn’t feel like melody since it’s more linear trajectory if that makes any sense.

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#48

A lot of country and folk songs are written from the idea (whatever it may be, often a catchy title) while a lot of rock songs are from the guitar riff. In the former, it’s okay if the music is generic because the focus is the vocal, whereas in the latter, the music is the focus and listeners may not even know what the lyrics are.

I often talk stream-of-consciousness just to see what comes out. (When in school, I prepared for tests by imagining I was leading a review of the material and improvising answers. If a good line came out, I caught it by the tail, so to speak, and used it in my essay.)
I wrote a whole song around the line: “How to sink a golf pro / With one of them little rakes”. (The song is called “I’ve Learned So Much from Her Mistakes.”) Obviously, that’s all about the idea: the music is bone simple.

When my wife hears me going on like this around the house she’ll say, “Are you talking to me or just talking?”
“Just talking, honey, and it would be wrong to listen.” :rofl:

This is the lyrical equivalent of noodling.
As for that, when I noodle, I think about riffs and grooves rather than solos or sequences.

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#49

I’ve got y’all covered with this query, “write a song about the terrible vengeance that witches extract after being burned alive and being sent to hell.”

Verse 1:
Once upon a time, in a land far away
Witches roamed free, casting spells all day
But the people grew scared, and they wanted them gone
So they captured the witches, and they lit the pyre

Chorus:
But the witches did not burn, they only laughed
For they knew they’d return, with terrible vengeance
From the depths of hell, they rose again
To extract their revenge, on those who condemned

Verse 2:
The witches came back, with power unmatched
They cast their spells, with a vengeance unmatched
They turned the people to stone, with just a glance
And they watched them crumble, as they danced

Chorus:
But the witches did not burn, they only laughed
For they knew they’d return, with terrible vengeance
From the depths of hell, they rose again
To extract their revenge, on those who condemned

Bridge:
No one could stop them, their power was too great
They wreaked havoc on the land, with no one to abate
But in the end, the witches grew tired
And they returned to hell, their vengeance satisfied

Chorus:
But the witches did not burn, they only laughed
For they knew they’d return, with terrible vengeance
From the depths of hell, they rose again
To extract their revenge, on those who condemned.

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#50

So freakin’ metal! :metal:

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#51

I’m sure most of us get similar suggestions by the YouTube algorithms, but I just watched this the other day:

Billy seems, in my experience talking to various musicians over the years, someone that people either love or can’t stand. I’m strictly speaking from a musical standpoint :slight_smile: The pumpkins were a huge part of my adolescence so they’ve always held a special place in my heart.

Still, I consider myself pretty objective and I think I can say without bias that Billy is one of the best songwriters of his generation. He writes several different types of songs, yet they always sound like “him”. His chord progression often are not “stock” and he always manages to convey powerful emotions in his songs. To me, that’s a great songwriter. He talks about his process some in this interview (see how I’m back on topic now? :slight_smile: ) For him, it’s all about a background chord progression (acoustic guitar most often) and just humming a melody over it. Lyrics come absolutely last.

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#52

Good save, I was about to press that “BAN” button :rofl:

By the way, do you remember any key timestamps for the songwriting discussion, or is it the whole thing? No probs if not :slight_smile: