How hard to press down on the fretboard?

This all assumes are reasonably good setup on the guitar.

This may or not be helpful, but I’ll try.

Pushing too hard means tension - which is bad for playing in general, but horrible for generating speed. Off the cuff, it sounds like you’ve got excess tension in your form. Either from not being comfortable with the movement yet, or some inefficiency making it necessary.

It’s not good/bad…just a puzzle to solve.

I may be the exception - but I’ve never paid any attention to how hard I press. A line may start out with too much, but over time it dissipates to whatever is appropriate. If it doesn’t, and it remains difficult or overly fatiguing to play - something is usually wrong with my approach.

Beyond setup, actual fret height and neck dimensions can be a factor. I’ve spent a lot of time playing guitars with flattish-fretboards (12 inch radius or greater) and tall-ish “jumbo” or “medium jumbo” type frets. When I recently started spending time with a more traditional strat-style guitar with 9.5 inch radius fretboard radius and smaller “vintage style” frets, I feel like I sometimes need to squeeze notes a little tighter to keep them ringing how I want, especially on bends. I’m not sure if I actually have to press harder, or if I just feel like I am because of the sensation of my fingertips contacting the fingerboard more with the shorter frets.

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Bending, in particular, this has been my experience as well. I find it a lot harder to get “under” the string to get enough leverage to bend on a truly vintage radius neck (like 7.5") or with very low, flat frets. Larger frets and flatter/compound radiuses, I dont’ feel like the string is constantly at risk of sliding out from under my finger.

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I find a great exercise is playing on the strings, so not fretting them fully but just muteing your playing. Thats really close to how you’d shread stuff, and you’d go harder as needed.

And a great thing about being light on the guitar for general playing is you can move your hand into different positions easier, you can slide across the neck.

A lot of players we see are doing a light touch most of the time, but they will also go hard on the guitar as they feel it. You can play fast pressing hard, but good luck to your hand over time.
I would really recommend doing some string touching playing, rather than fretting, and when you get a feel for that you can fret as hard as you need of feel. You will feel it.

This is really good advice, yea. I’ve tried this a few times and it’s a pretty stark reminder of just how little force is actually required.

Three top players talk about it

Among my electrics, I’ve got a '52 Reissue Tele with short, narrow frets and a 7.25" radius fretboard. I also have a partscaster with a 7.25" radius neck. The others are 9.5" or greater.

I’ve never experienced what I would ever call ‘issues’ with bending on smaller radius necks, shorter frets or both together. Taller frets make it a little easier.

An ever so slightly higher string action has always remedied any concerns I felt. I suppose I’ve always preferred a slightly higher action for bending reasons. I do mean slightly higher.

I’ve heard others talk about shorter radius necks causing problems. Things like bending issues and fretting-out bends. Perhaps I’m a bit thick in the head…but that’s just never been my experience.

YMMV.

I would describe it as No pressure/force/squeeze etc. should be applied. Rather the weight of your finger, hand, wrist, arm, shoulder can use gravity to “push the string down” without using any actual pressure.

I would tell you to let your fretting arm, and eventually your entire body, to let go and be as limp as a rag doll or a piece of rope. Continue to allow your arm to get heavier and heavier. If you think you can’t get any more heavy, try just a little more. Now, without using the muscles in your finger/hand, let the entire weight of the finger, hand, wrist, forearm, bicep, shoulder do all the work to push the string down.

I will notice a sense of lightness in my fretting hand side of my body and it feels great.

I would suggest you do some research on the Alexander Technique

This is false. Fretting requires muscular contraction. Weight pulls to the floor, not into the fretboard.

Minimising the muscular tension involved in fretting is a goal worth pursuing, but to state that there is no exertion required is misleading and unhelpful.

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In classical guitar we’re taught to not have the guitar’s body parallel with our own, but (the bottom of the instrument) tilted away from us at angle about 30 - 45 degrees. This helps with projection since if the back of the guitar was right against our belly it hinders the natural vibration. This angle does sort of allow for the gravity pulling our fingers into the fretboard. That’s kind of situational still though.

I’d agree in a more typical electric guitar context, especially when playing standing, this isn’t possible. Maybe heavy individuals (no judgement from me, I like hamburgers and pizza) with a bigger belly would have the guitar body slightly angled outward even when standing.

This really doesn’t track. Sure, you would now have introduced a force vector into the fretboard, but you’ve created another force vector which pulls the string downwards. Now you have to prevent that downward of the string, which you cant do unless you hold your hand up, eliminating the weight effect.

Fretting requires muscular contraction. This is absolute, unavoidable fact.

Right, I wasn’t suggesting we don’t need any tension. I just know what I’ve felt. When I play things on my classical guitar I can be very relaxed and I feel the weight of my arm assisting with the fretting. The strings don’t really stretch the same way they do on electric and I don’t feel I need secondary force to counter pulling downward.
This is a different experience than if I have the guitar, an electric especially, parallel to my body.

Again I am not saying this gets me out of pressing with the fingers I just feel like I press less when I have the arm weight and shoulder pulling down. It is also highly possible that what I feel is not what’s really happening :slight_smile:

This is what I’ve ended up doing. My original point wasn’t that the difference is impossible to manage, but merely that the difference exists.

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This reminds me of the concepts of “head voice” and “chest voice” in singing. There are physiological explanations for the cavity shaping and laryngeal function that go into getting vocal “registers” to work, but “it makes my face vibrate” versus “it doesn’t make my face vibrate” is a useful shorthand for helping singers recognize and reinforce a mechanism they will want to be able to command even without fully understanding all the details of how it works.

I’ve never seen any classical guitarist hold the guitar at an angle from their body, they do however don’t hold it against their body. I think an angle would be bad, especially for the wrists being put into a more knife edge position which is a recipe for tendonitis and you end up having to hold the neck which you shouldn’t have to do either.

The reality is that - yes, trained classical players will position the guitar so the back is as free to resonate as possible. It may not appear that they’re doing so - but in profile they usually are. It’s quite subtle.

A classical guitar is so lightweight, and fretting nylon strings takes so little effort.

That also means sustain can be hard to come by. Anything touching the front or back will affect resonance. The neck is also tilted way up, so wrist angle isn’t as much of an issue as you might expect…

This is sort of funny. I was about to post a pic of the first classical guitarist I could think of showing how obvious this is. Actually, you aren’t wrong. You’ve probably never seen any classical guitarist do this. I had more trouble finding ones that did than those who seem to hold it pretty straight.

I was trained in the classical technique by Julian Gray of the Peabody Conservatory. It’s a world renowned conservatory (not quite Juliard, but up there) and he’s very respected, particularly for his tone production, and that was the basis of everything he showed me - how to coax the best possible sounds from the instrument. He did instruct me to angle the guitar away from my body with the explanation that I needed to keep the back of the instrument free to resonate.

I should point out (and no judgement here at all) that if someone is just a ‘casual’ classical guitar fan/player, this stuff isn’t on their radar. The training I received was with the thought that I’d go on to become someone who performs classical guitar for a living and there are considerations that the general guitar public (even ones interested in elite guitarists like close to 100% of us here are) just doesn’t think about. Also, unless these considerations are done on a high quality very resonant instrument, it’s highly possible there would be no difference if you let the back of the instrument touch your body or not. If a guitar isn’t built in a way that allows a high amount of resonance from the back…then stopping that resonance (that isn’t very present to begin with) won’t make much difference. My instrument, while nothing to brag about in relative terms, was hand built by a regionally respected classical guitar luthier and I could definitely hear a pronounced difference on my guitar if I didn’t angle it away from me. I paid $2K for it in the year 2000. Julian told me I’d purchased a nice instrument. He told me his cost $10K, just for perspective :slight_smile: You may not notice any difference if you walk into a guitar center and try one of their mass produced ‘classical’ guitars. They aren’t necessarily built with the intent of giving public performances in a small concert venue, no mic used.

Anyway, here’s a video of Julian where it’s clear that he’s angling the instrument away from himself.

Here’s an image of Manuel Barrueco, another Peabody guy and there’s a clear tilt

Here’s Christopher Parkening (my favorite ‘tone’ guy of the genre) - tilted

David Russell (considered by many the “best” we have, alive today) - tilted

So that’s me cherry-picking data :slight_smile: and now you can’t say you’ve never seen ‘any’ classical guitarists do this. I’ll gladly eat my words and walk back any sentiment that they ‘all’ do this. I’d honestly never given it much thought and just done things the way Julian taught me, assuming since he was a prominent instructor in a realm where technique doesn’t vary that much, that’s what everyone else did too.

In fairness, here’s John Williams, regarded as the supreme technician of classical guitar. He has great tone also…looks like he holds the guitar pretty ‘straight’ and looks quite different from the rest. I found plenty of others who hold the instrument like he does.

And finally, since I’m constantly trying to market the music of Barrios in hopes to make the world a better place, here’s an assortment of artists, all varying degrees of the ‘tilt’ (or in some cases, the absence of a tilt).

To keep it back on topic, there’s plenty examples in this video of ways to press just hard enough. I’ve played some of these pieces and they are brutal on the left hand. If you don’t do it the ‘right’ way (or at least, not too much of the wrong way lol), you can’t get through the pieces.

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Great comment @joebegly .

I once saw an interview with a classical guitar builder (supposedly one of the best). He said something to the effect that in an ideal classical guitar, the back should be a reflector only and have minimal resonance, thereby having little to no effect on the overall tone.

Classical guitar technique is not my area of expertise and I know almost nothing about classical guitar luthiery, so I can’t comment on that, but I thought it was very interesting.

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It’s possible! I don’t really know tons about the building of classical guitars. I do know that in a John Williams documentary he met with his builder and he mentions that he thinks the build is due for a reevaluation. It’s clear from what they are discussing that the overall sound has more to do with the top (we’ll say ‘front’ since before I talked of the ‘back’). Maybe the interview you’re referencing is more pronounced in more expensive builds? Or maybe technology is moving forward, as Williams was hoping, and this is a better way.

Now, I just pulled my classical out (I don’t play it much these days) and I tried playing intentionally with the back against my body. I can feel it vibrating and the difference in sound as I bring it away from myself is pretty obvious. The best analogy I can think of is if you put a blanket over a speaker and gradually removed it. There’s a clarity and volume difference that’s easy to hear. Again, my instrument isn’t very expensive as far as these guitars go. I have a very nice Taylor acoustic, a steel string, and I notice it with this too, but it isn’t quite as pronounced as what happens on my classical.

The other thing I noticed, that has me reevaluating some things is that I don’t need to angle the instrument away from myself as much as I do by default to get what sounds like the same tonal benefit to me. There’s a place where that muffled sound leaves and once you pass that, I don’t detect much difference. In this reduced angle, that ‘weight’ I’d mentioned to you in my first post is not present at all and I have to use my hands/fingers more to fret the notes. Again, I was never claiming the ‘weight’ did all the work, just that it helped slightly. It’s possible I’m pulling with my back and/or shoulder slightly and that’s what helps and gravity has nothing to do with it. So, maybe it’s all in my head :slight_smile:

Does anyone here educated on the topic know whether it’s appropriate to think about the back of an acoustic guitar like the bottom head on a drum?