How Much Technique Do You Need To Be A World-Class Player?

[Troy]

I have pondered these issues for a long time and I want to question what has become “common wisdom” , namely a feeling of awe for these people because of unconscious skill acquisition, I feel this is misplaced.

Admittedly, I tend to gush about positives and stuff I like. It’s my answer to an online world filled with rants and takedowns. If you feel this goes overboard, I can only cop to being what I am!

It’s true everyone does have this ability to negotiate complicated physical things by feel. And we can, as you say, unlock it with a little more explicit mentoring than we all grew up with. The student still has to take all of that the final mile, and, indeed, that will be done by feel.

But it’s still an amazing feat when someone like John gets there with essentially zero in the way anyone telling him anything. I don’t see how I’ll ever stop thinking that’s a pretty cool and relatively rare occurrence.

[joshuaskaja]

it’s still an amazing feat when someone like John gets there with essentially zero in the way anyone telling him anything. I don’t see how I’ll ever stop thinking that’s a pretty cool and relatively rare occurrence.

It’s wild to think about the degree to which survivorship bias influences our understanding of guitar—there are millions of people, potentially with great taste and ideas, who didn’t intuitively arrive at a working solution, and so… we’ve never heard of them.

[joshuaskaja]

I can now play much smoother, quicker lines arranged for this motion. Also I’m having a lot more fun learning, because I can learn these lines quicker.

For decades we’ve been (explicitly and implicitly) saying “if you practice more, you’ll get it.”

But now I’ve started telling my students “when you get it, you’ll practice more” and then trying to engineer the epiphany for them.

Progress is its own reward.

[Surfpunk]

it’s still an amazing feat when someone like John gets there with essentially zero in the way anyone telling him anything. I don’t see how I’ll ever stop thinking that’s a pretty cool and relatively rare occurrence.

It’s wild to think about the degree to which survivorship bias influences our understanding of guitar—there are millions of people, potentially with great taste and ideas, who didn’t intuitively arrive at a working solution, and so… we’ve never heard of them.

This comment by the poster stated what I and at least two other people in the public eye have spoken of. This is Everybody but the intuitives and they(joe and jane six string) are not making it and don’t even know that they are not making it and yet…yet they still carry on. Why?
Because the urge to express themselves inspired by the “intuitives” - because this itself is a huge subject that needs a lot more explicit reveal then ever has been done in any field - is overwhelming - don’t you hear musical lines when the car honks and the dog barks and the baby cries and the children laugh - but the connection the interface has failed because the technique to allow for that connection (to make the implicit explicit) is out of the awareness of almost anyone who seriously picks up an instrument and all kinds of excuses are made, “if only blah blah blah” and so on.

Now to me if you want to say something that badly, that(full stop) needs to be said and by all the ones with desire to say it. I admittedly am not a fan of the genetic gamble and I submit that Art and the the Artist are themselves an antidote to this path not proof of it.

I have seen explicity the path to intuition, and what I have seen shows not only the “mechanics” the “doing” but also anticipation of the doing right? The pickup/upbeat/the breath in, the 'not doing" So that motion away from something is as important as the motion towards something and in fact may be the only truly explicit knowable so that everyone who wants can finally have it.

There is nothing like what you have accomplished anywhere my desire is to end division not exacerbate it. The door is open.

[Acecrusher]

It’s wild to think about the degree to which survivorship bias influences our understanding of guitar—there are millions of people, potentially with great taste and ideas, who didn’t intuitively arrive at a working solution, and so… we’ve never heard of them.

Are you referring to the people who didn’t learn to play with speed and accuracy of guys like John McLaughlin and Yngwie Malmsteen? People who didn’t have what it took to “crack the code” on their own?

I ask because if that is what you’re saying and if guitarists who fall short of that type of speed and accuracy are who you;re referring to, I think there is a much more positive way of looking at it…

Here it is: While it’s true that guitarists with that special kind talent which guys like Yngwie Malmsteen, Paul Gilbert, and Vinnie Moore had were able to play musical phrases and lines at speeds which the vast majority of guitarists could not, this does not mean that the guitarists who didn’t have what it took to figure out how to alternate pick on their level ended up not being heard of, that they vanished into obscurity or that the guys with great musical ideas but not these kind of blazing chops ended up as failed musicians because that just isn’t the case!

Jimmy Page was a guitarist who I consider to be reasonably fast, but he certainly never had the chops that the guys on the Shrapnel Records label had. So what happened to poor old Jimmy, since he didn’t “crack the code”? He only played guitar in Led Zeppelin and made albums with them such as The Song Remains The Same, Led Zeppelin II, and ZOSO which included gems like StairwayTo Heaven and Rock 'n Roll." He wrote Kashmir and performed it with Led Zep - and Kashmir is one of the most iconic songs in the history of hard rock music!

Jimmy Page was a speed demon compared to David Gimour but did Gilmour fade into obscurity never to be hard of by anyone except a small cult following? Not quite! Pink Floyd is one of the most successful, talented, and interesting rock bands there ever was! I can honestly say that I have never once heard anyone say “Can you imagine how great Pink Floyd would have been if David Gilmour had just learned to play faster?”

I could go on but I think I’ve made my point.

[joshuaskaja]

@Acecrusher Thanks for adding that—pure gold.

Yes, Zep & Floyd would’ve been ruined by swapping in different guitarists. I know I’m in the minority on this forum in that I’m not interested in shred guitar and would much much rather listen to Jimmy Page play the occasional clam than hear Yngwie flawlessly tear through his thing.

But no, that’s not quite what I meant.

Instead of a yes/no, cracked/didn’t crack sort of division between guitarists, I’m thinking of it more in an efficiency sort of way. Like you can bail out a boat with a leaky bucket, but the guy with a non-leaky bucket is going to have an easier time.

When I set out to transition to playing music for a living, my crap technique made everything I did take way way longer (and in many cases stop short of the goal). It’s only sheer stubbornness and dumb luck that’s allowed me to stay in the game long enough to figure it out (and again—“figured out” much closer to the Page/Gilmour end of the spectrum than the YJM/Gilbert/Moore end).

I’d say that in 99% of parallel universes I’m still a bartender or I sell cars or something. Not because I don’t have good taste or don’t have good ideas or didn’t show up to the do hard work, but because the efficiency with which I chased the goal didn’t give me enough runway to get lucky.

Would I still play guitar if that were the case? 100% yes.

Or consider it the other way—if reliable, relatable methods of teaching picking mechanics existed/were widespread in 1994 when I first picked up the instrument, how different of a player would I (would we all) be?

[Surfpunk]

Jimmy Page was a speed demon compared to David Gimour but did Gilmour fade into obscurity never to be hard of by anyone except a small cult following? Not quite! Pink Floyd is one of the most successful, talented, and interesting rock bands there ever was! I can honestly say that I have never once heard anyone say “Can you imagine how great Pink Floyd would have been if David Gilmour had just learned to play faster?”

This is all true but the one thing you can be sure of with both these players who are models for all time is they said what they meant and they meant what they said period. They were perfectionist I’m sure and the artistry is absolute.

I studied from a well known a long time ago and one thing we discussed was that guy playing standards on hollow body at the restaurant who couldn’t play fast but every and I mean every note he played meant something. Now that is the exact same thing as shredding.

Some players just can’t get their groove on without having that 8th/16th note feel at there command in order to not play that way(that is express themselves freely) because for the most part that was who they/me were inspired by. A lot of these cats should have been the new piano virtuosos but that just didn’t fly in the eighties (ask Troy), they wanted to rock and the last romantic was close to the end with the others Gould and Van Cliburn bailing on the gig.

Like it or not mostly those became our models and since as kids Page and Gilmore and all were manageable as you know we never stopped to check our “efficiency” afraid of being left behind. I know this I was one them but the way towards a more balanced artistic life is available now. Thanks for sharing.

[Acecrusher]

@joshuaskaja

Thanks for adding that—pure gold.

Yes, Zep & Floyd would’ve been ruined by swapping in different guitarists. I know I’m in the minority on this forum in that I’m not interested in shred guitar and would much much rather listen to Jimmy Page play the occasional clam than hear Yngwie flawlessly tear through his thing.

Thank you

BTW, I just wanted to add that we have something in common. Although Yngwie Malmsteen is my favorite lead guitarist and I spent thousands of hours practicing in the 80s and 90s until I could play about as fast as him. Despite all that, he does not write my favorite songs. There are songs by Led Zep and Pink Floyd (“Dogs” for one) that I enjoy listening to more than any of Yngwie’s songs. You don’t need to be able to shred to be an awesome rock guitar player.

I gather that wasn’t exactly your point though. I did read on and tried to understand exactly what it is that you’re getting at - what is it that is your primary message? Sorry, I don’t mean to be a pest!

[Surfpunk]

It took me a few minutes to get it but I feel the main gist is that Anything is a pain in the… if you don’t have efficient technique. The gig calls for Madonna style guitar boom here it is, Rockbilly no problem, standards ok(not Stern but ok). Everything is inefficient on an instrument without adequate technique to the slings and arrows… and so on. That’s what I go out of this post.

[Acecrusher]

OK, that seems reasonable. Thank you.

Whie on this subject, I have a question for anyone participating in this thread: Do you sometimes think that being obsessed/extremely interested in developing great technique takes too much time away from songwriting? Although Yngwie is my favorite lead player, my absolute favorite songs were not written by real shred guitarists. they were written by the guys in Judas Priest and Queensryche. They’re certainly very capable guitarists but at least for most of their careers they were not shredders. I say for “most…” because on the Painkiller album the Judas Priest guitarists Tipton and Downing do shred! But in the 70s and 80s? No. The guys in Queensryche never were shredders.

I love Dio and Black Sabbath and both of the guitarists - Iommi and Viv Campbell were fast but not quite shredders. Viv Campbell maybe, but he didn’t sweep pick or do most of the traditional shred type licks. he just had a few Gary Moore licks that he played fast as hell and he had his Rainbow In The Dark solo which was mindblowing!

[Surfpunk]

“No Whie on this subject, I have a question for anyone participating in this thread: Do you sometimes think that being obsessed/extremely interested in developing great technique takes too much time away from songwriting?”

No actually I don’t because I was working on the fast downstrokes for “livewire”
by Crue and while I was getting more under control I started to hear a descending line of the D and G string you know descending diatonic thirds and then I could see the drone A string wasn’t enough I could hear the descending bass line and fortunately the two string chords were easy near the neck and you got the open B and E string for an A minor tonality(throughout the line) and before you know it the open E ends the descending line. After this the bridge came easy very funky and because of the ease of recording with daw and ur22 I heard a melody and sang it and even made the bridge better.

My Gfriend was impressed when I played it(I knew it was good), and that was all because of “Livewire” downstrokes giving me permission to slow down and get melodic. See I practice what I preach.

[Acecrusher]

Good for you!

I like that song. I like the whole album. I’m planning to see the movie sometime in the next few days

You’ve got a girlfriend that likes Crue? Does she like many other 80s metal bands?

The first girlfriend I ever had loved the Too Fast For Love album. Although she did think that Vince Neil sounded like a young boy on that album which he does. Great songs though, like “Starry Eyes.” She liked Def Leppard’s Pyromania too. She said her favorite line of all was from “Rock Rock Till You Drop” - the line goes “Your mama don’t mind what your mama don’t see”! Ha ha ha ha!

[Surfpunk]

Dude that movie is Great, I’ve seen it twice. But no she is not a fan at all but I was able to translate my desire to get that riff spot on led to a slow melodic jam that she did like.

[Surfpunk]

I saw them with OZZY at nassau before that record but the sound was terrible for them I remember “Wasted” those guys can right nice riffs still. Ozzy of course sound great with Randy.

[Acecrusher]

You saw Ozzy when Randy was still with him? Damn, I would have loved to have seen Ozzy and Randy! As a matter of fact the first twi heavy metal records I ever heard , one day one of my friends had mover to his house and he said he had some records I had to hear so he played “Back In Black” by AC?DC and I liked it right away (Hell’s Bells). Then he said " Now I have something even heavier." Since I didn’t know anything about heavy metal then I said “How can it be any heavier than AC/DC? The guy is already screaming as loud as he can!”

My friend replied: The guitar can be heavier!

So he played Diary Of A Madman and Blizzard Of Ozz! He told me that Randy Rhoads was dead. So even the first day I discovered Ozzy, Randy had already been dead for a while.

[Surfpunk]

not relevant to topic sorry

[Surfpunk]

Sorry about this post I thought it was a private message

[Surfpunk]

It’s true everyone does have this ability to negotiate complicated physical things by feel. And we can, as you say, unlock it with a little more explicit mentoring than we all grew up with. The student still has to take all of that the final mile, and, indeed, that will be done by feel.

But it’s still an amazing feat when someone like John gets there with essentially zero in the way anyone telling him anything. I don’t see how I’ll ever stop thinking that’s a pretty cool and relatively rare occurrence.

I have to add one thing because it just doesn’t sit well.

Because of my progress I see how feel is the final step. But feeling is Joy, joy is not something you have to coax out of anyone they move for it instinctively, that is not a gift for few the but a gift for all of us.

Now if you want to say that intuitives are in such a state of joy while learning that their approach happens in a state of ecstatic feeling, I can accept that. But what does that say for the rest of us?

I want to be that harbinger of joy.

[joebegly]

This is just incredible. I only heard about CtC a couple years ago and I’ve increasingly gotten more interested (enough so to buy a full membership to both learn more and support the fantastic product Troy and the team have put together). If 4 years ago someone would have told me, say, John Petrucci has these tiny little movements worked out that enable him to switch strings without getting ‘stuck’, or that he orients his pick slant just one way and only switches string after upstrokes/downstrokes (depending on what the claim of his pick slant is)… I’d have believed it. So much of his playing is worked out that it’s not too much of a stretch to think he’d do this. Even if it’s something he’s only aware of subconsciously, it’s totally believable because he’s so precise and so worked out.

Now if you’d have told me the same was true of John McLaughlin, I’d have told to see a doctor, cuz your crazy!!! lol!

You can’t deny the proof of this post though, and it’s amazing that someone we think of as such a pure improviser can stitch together these lines on the fly, while almost always switching strings after a downstroke. Amazing playing, and amazing analysis.

[Zoobiedood]

Bumping this topic, as I just started studying Johnny Mac’s technique. I didn’t grow up listening to him, or studying his mechanics, but the way it is presented here makes one thing clear:
I developed almost the exact same forearm and wrist position & DSX picking on my own. It is just eerie reading about the pros and cons about this approach, as it is like reading about me. I combine sweeping on the upstroke which is really easy for me. But I struggle with downward sweeping being as smooth, as I have the same issues as shown in the article. Even ascending 2 or 3 note-per-string (always sweeping to the next highest string no matter what I previously played) is not as smooth as upstrokes going to a bigger string.
Obviously John doesn’t sound like he struggles with ascending patterns. My pick doesn’t slice over the strings (it hits the string more parallel on the face of the pick), and my motion on escape fly away from the guitar as much as John’s does.
Is there something I can change about what I do to make ascending pattern string-changing smoother?