How to learn DBX + Feedback on my 1nps pattern

[Rubaan]

Hey everyone,

I wanted to ask how you approach learning double escape motion, or 2wps.
I play on acoustic guitar mainly and I have a comfortable DSX motion, anchoring on my thumb. I want to be able to escape on upstrokes as well. I am now trying to play licks that also require USX.

For this, I use the DSX motion as a base, and then I try to sneak in an upstroke escape when needed. It all feels very conscious, as in: I’m really steering my picking hand to escape after an upstroke. It works though, and I can get it to work at tempo’s like 132 bpm.

This seems to conflict a little with what I learn from Troy’s videos and feedback. The picking motion should feel “mentally easy”, and 132 bpm should not be the speed limit.

What are your thoughts/experiences on this matter? Did you have an initial phase where you were still trying to steer the motion, and did this change over time?

I added a clip for reference. This is a 1 note per string pattern over the D-G-B strings played at 120bpm. It worked well and my hand did not cramp up or get tired, but it happened while I was really concentrating. Not “mentally easy”. Do you think this is still normal in the learning path?

1 NPS pattern at 120 bpm

[joebegly]

I think this looks great @Rubaan! I don’t know that I’ve ever heard Troy say that an efficient technique will not be mentally challenging. I’ve only heard him discuss physical fatigue. The speed you are hitting here indicates a good degree of efficiency. If I had a dollar for every critique of DBX I’ve seen on here where people are not even getting to this speed…I could probably treat myself to a night at the movies Joking aside, I think if something is relatively new, we should expect we’ll need to concentrate/focus intently on it until it becomes rote.

I think DBX is pretty nuanced too, as there are sort of “degrees” of efficiency in it. I think you are through the first threshold, so well done there. But I’ve heard Troy say we should expect DBX motions to go as fast as what we’ve seen from Molly Tuttle and Andy Wood. They regularly hit 16ths in the 140 - 160 bpm range. So the question would be, can your motion go that fast? There’s a huge difference from “being able to go a certain speed” and doing it “cleanly”. Many of us are afraid to go at speeds where we hear “mistakes” because that’s how we’ve been conditioned thanks to all the misinformation and dogma that’s been plaguing the guitar community until (thank god!!!) Troy rescued us all. I’d experiment with going even faster and making sure you don’t burn out, that’s how you know for sure the motion’s maximally efficient. Don’t worry if it doesn’t sound fantastic, just make sure you’re mostly getting clean escapes and the motion isn’t tiring (physically)/

If that’s not what happens, maybe it’s time to make some subtle tweaks and experiment with variations. You’re motion looks like Molly’s to me, and that’s the first one I found that I could get beyond the dreaded “string hopping” barrier.

happy crosspicking magnet test

I couldn’t comfortably get it to go much faster than 120 - 130 bpm though. So I experimented. Without too much effort, I found I could do the “Steve Morse” setup and get that going faster.

Carl Miner with Morse grip

And I think all these variations help each other too. Just branching out a little, I think, helped me be able to get a little faster with the Molly form than I was before.

[Rubaan]

Hey @joebegly !

Thank you so much for your reply. I watched your videos with a lot of joy. I love the stuff that Carl Miner plays, and I love the tune of your first video also. This music is exactly what I’m trying to accomplish with my practicing, and what keeps me motivated.

I couldn’t comfortably get it to go much faster than 120 - 130 bpm though. So I experimented.

What exactly was the dicsomfort? Were you getting fatigued, or were you just not hitting anything? My experience when I’m trying to make this motion go faster, is that my hand frantically moves, but it just does not hit a lot of string. Let’s call it 80% miss. This is indeed why I’m a bit hesitant in speeding up, but maybe I should give it a go.

You switched to a Steve Morse setup – I notice that you anchor on your pinky side now. Were there other things in the setup that you changed, does the motion feel different than in the Carl Miner clip, and did you talk with Troy about that?

Thanks a lot for your reply All the practicing hours while not being sure if I’m making progress can sometimes be a bit frustrating. I appreciate that you share your experiences, that keeps my spirit up!

Edit: Does the Steve Morse motion feel like it takes less effort?

[joebegly]

@Rubaan

What exactly was the dicsomfort? Were you getting fatigued, or were you just not hitting anything?

To me it was fatigue, which is always and indicator of “You’re doing it wrong!!!” lol I’m trying really hard to be aware of that and when it happens, try something else, since we know more of the wrong thing won’t make it better.

@Rubaan

You switched to a Steve Morse setup – I notice that you anchor on your pinky side now. Were there other things in the setup that you changed, does the motion feel different than in the Carl Miner clip, and did you talk with Troy about that?

Ha…interesting. The Carl Miner clip was supposed to be the Steve Morse setup. Definitely the 3-finger grip is there, but my pinky is up in the air a little too, which I definitely wasn’t trying to do. I don’t think that makes is not the Morse Motion though. To me, it feels like a door knocking motion where the other’s have a more side-to-side feeling. And I think that’s why it tends to feel so much easier. Troy’s been talking about this a lot lately in the Reverse Dart Thrower section of the Pickslanting Primer. There’s just a mechanical advantage to keeping the motion on that path as compared to a more side-to-side approach. And yes, Troy did see my attempts. I catalogued the early phases of my DBX adventure here

Joe's DBX Magnet Practice

I was pretty excited to get my magnet the other day! It’s helping me already. I’ve been messing with DBX a decent amount the last 8 months or so. Here’s a short phrase that feels pretty easy for me on most days: Overall I thought I was doing ok considering I’ve never tried cross picking in my life, prior to earlier this year. BUT, on another tune I’ve been playing around with, I noticed this weird tense looking thing happening on and off. I always knew this piece was harder but didn’t rea…

I was initially doing a Molly form, and also attempting an Andy Wood form. Out of those 2, Troy said he thought the Molly one seemed easier for me. I tried the Morse form just because the only thing I didn’t dig about the Molly form is that I was dampening the strings some, and I really wanted to have a more “lush” sound with 4 - 5 or even all 6 strings ringing. Plus, I do love Steve and he palm mutes a lot. That, to me, seems incompatible with the Molly form.

@Rubaan

Edit: Does the Steve Morse motion feel like it takes less effort?

Yep, as I described above, it just seems like a more natural motion to me. Nothing at all wrong with the Molly or Andy form. To me they are “my” problem rather than the motions themselves. And if I’ve learned anything from Troy, it’s that when you find something that feels easier, that’s the thing you should exploit. Once you get a great baseline, you can always try other stuff. At least you’ll have something to compare it with to know if you’re on the right track. Relatedly, I often precede any DBX practice with some light (but speedy) DSX tremolo just to remind myself of how easy DBX should feel. It should not feel harder than single escape. I do think it is harder because there is more accuracy required, but that smooth effortless feel should always be there.

[Rubaan]

Thanks again for your message

Ha…interesting. The Carl Miner clip was supposed to be the Steve Morse setup.

Woops, I mixed up your clips. Sorry about that. I meant to ask: Did the Steve Morse setup in the Carl Miner clip feel different than the other clip.

I was reading through your Joe’s DBX Magnet Practice topic, and I saw a couple of things that caught my attention:

1. For my understanding: Your first picking motion, the “Molly” one, would you say that this was Dart Thrower motion (To escape on upstrokes), and in the “Steve Morse” one, it was Reverse Dart Thrower, (to escape on the Downstrokes)?
2. You mention that when crosspicking, you are not feeling a curved motion at all, and that it feels like a flat motion

It feels as though it’s just interrupted by the pick hitting the string almost like a ‘ramp’ that helps it get over the next string.

Did you feel that “ramp”/“resistance” in both your Molly Tuttle and your Steve Morse version picking?

3. Did you notice that edge picking made a difference for you in finding this deflection/ramp?

Also: A lot of knowledge being shared in that topic of yours. so I might have missed some more interesting things

[joebegly]

@Rubaan

For my understanding: Your first picking motion, the “Molly” one, would you say that this was Dart Thrower motion (To escape on upstrokes), and in the “Steve Morse” one, it was Reverse Dart Thrower, (to escape on the Downstrokes)?

Yes, I think that’s correct based on my understanding. The Molly motion, on the upstroke portion, does the dart thrower motion, then on the downstroke it is more deviation. It’s the inverse of the much discussed Andy Wood “9 0 2” clockface thing. I guess it would be “10 0 3” Morse is definitely a reverse dart thrower, more entirely though. Meaning, it’s a more vertical movement like the door knocking and I think that’s why I can do it with more ease.

@Rubaan

You mention that when crosspicking, you are not feeling a curved motion at all, and that it feels like a flat motion

Yep, the curve has to be super shallow. I think trying to curve is why so many poor unfortunate souls find themselves in string hopping hell.

@Rubaan

Did you notice that edge picking made a difference for you in finding this deflection/ramp?

I actually haven’t found a way to get much edge picking in my crosspicking, not with the Molly or Steve setup anyway. It requires me to bend my thumb which feels weird. Plus I mainly have done this stuff on acoustic, and in general edge picking sounds really scratchy to me on acoustic. I get around it by using more of a rounded pick (standard pick) or something like a Tortex Flow that just doesn’t seem to need as much edge picking. I do imagine edge picking would help that “ramp” effect though. And yes I felt the ramp in general with pretty much any form I tried. I noticed this was more pronounced when capo-ing as the string tension increases. Troy and Andy talk about this in his mandolin interview. And sure enough, I tried a mandolin a few weeks ago (for the first time in like 10 years) and I feel that ramp almost constantly. Almost like I get DBX “for free” just be assuming a neutral-ish pick slant. Pretty crazy!

[Rubaan]

Alright, interesting Buying a mandoline was always on my mind, but now you have convinced me

I will try and play faster and sloppier, and if that doesn’t work: I might also try to move to a supinated position. I’ve done so before and the speed was there, but the sound that my pick was making with the strings was very choppy. That’s why I didn’t want to move on with it. But I’m sure I can make that go away one way or the other

Thanks for the help so far!

[bradejensen]

@joebegly

Troy and Andy talk about this in his mandolin interview. And sure enough, I tried a mandolin a few weeks ago (for the first time in like 10 years) and I feel that ramp almost constantly.

Is the distance between the strings less? Never owned one nor am I a luthier.

Do you get a more soul like vibe from playing a mandolin?

The reason I ask is because it appears that there are a ton of italian mandolin virtuoso players back during probably that italian solfeggio phase before it seemed to die off. Look at how many came from Italy during the golden age.

List of mandolinists (sorted)

[joebegly]

@bradejensen

Is the distance between the strings less?

To me it actually looks a little wider than the distance between strings on the guitar. I don’t fully understand the implications of that from a geometry perspective, but I’m reminded of Troy’s interview with Steve Morse and how long and flat his pick strokes are (though obviously gently curved). It just feels like on mandolin I get more of that without trying.

@bradejensen

Do you get a more soul like vibe from playing a mandolin?

Nope. Lol! It’s really fun though.