I can’t find a motion, been trying now for almost 3 years. I think I just can’t play fast at this point.
I can either play fast and be all tense and start getting pain, or I can play slow to mid tempo relaxed and controlled. Is my technique just too burned in at this age? I mean I’ve definitely improved it a ton in the last couple of years. I’ve gotten my left hand much much faster and my right hand can’t keep up with it. I’m much cleaner, more in time, I can play for a lot longer and I pay way way more attention to what I’m doing. I just can’t go fast… If I try and do it not tense my hand freaks out and just pisses me off and goes all over hells half acre and that’s not fun.
Why talk fast? Do you want to talk fast? Are you giving in to peer pressure? Your own speed is really important, thats you.
Perhaps I’m taking shit but I really don’t think I am, there is a reason why you feel you need to play fast… Most people don’t care unless you’ve something to say. And you don’t need to say it fast. It’s the rat race… Thats something we all hate and want to get away from.
And I know thats not a mechanic reply, I apologize, It’s genuinely something to think about tho, something I’ve struggled in my attempt at getting good on guitar… why… who cares… only me. I ain’t getting paid for this sht… I’m acually putting myself out there for attack giving my honest views. But I’d have it no other way, I’m me, just as you’re you, and anyone who thinks we should be different than our pure expression is evil. That what I believe.
Of course! But if you want to play fast, it’s worth continuing to experiment with, probably by drastically changing whatever you’ve been doing.
You mention being tense - what forms have you worked on? I personally think some techniques are a little trickier to get a hold of tension on (like elbow), but are simpler to learn, whereas other techniques (rotation, certain wrist forms) are “gentler”, let’s say, but more difficult to learn correctly in the first place.
I’ve never heard this expression before, I love it. haha
I thought I had this memory too. It’s funny how my brain works. I recalled Troy saying if this were the 80’s and he was in a band with a hit single he’d be on the cover of a damn magazine. So I searched “damn magazine” and found it right away
We can’t see any of the videos anymore but if Troy said it was good, I can’t imagine it being bad. I guess to your point @ScottyB (and there’s things in my own playing I’d agree with about this), there’s a difference between being able to play something fast and feeling like it’s very easy to play something that’s fast. All the fast players we admire have that in common regardless of the genre. The fast things we see them play are relatively effortless.
So if it’s a matter of finding something with low tension, I’d echo the other questions on here. What motions have you tried?
I think this is absolutely true. This is anecdotal but the 3 main motions I can do are elbow, wrist DSX and forearm rotation USX.
Elbow - fast and easy to execute, but hardest to not tense up too much on. This can cause issues with my fretting hands as they want to tense up in sympathy.
Wrist DSX - fast enough pretty easy to do, pretty relaxed feeling. This is probably my “goldilocks motion” but it’s not as fun for me lol!
Forearm USX - probably as fast as elbow and EXTREMELY relaxed. My arm almost feels like rubber when I do this. It just flops around. Hardest to control when playing synchronized though. There are times where I can only do it really fast and if I slow it down even a little it turns into something else. Also, I can’t always “call this one up” instantly like I can with the others. Also, sometimes if I’m working on tremolo and then try to introduce the fretting hand, I’ll see the motion turn into something else because it can’t do this on auto-pilot – the act of making my fretting hand move quick triggers the program my brain is most used to, and that’s for some sort of DSX motion to execute.
I think this all makes sense for me because before I knew anything about anything, I was mainly a wrist DSX player that would have the elbow take over when I tried to go my fastest. The forearm motion is the newest one to me.
I’d expect anyone else who’s tried multiple motions to have a different experience from me.
Now in fairness, I can say that one thing I’ve never actively tried is concentrate on elbow and focus on minimizing the tension as much as possible. In theory that’s probably less of a lift than learning a brand new motion (like forearm).
To focus on reducing tension, I think ways to encourage that are to practice powerful accents in between regular volume playing, OR to focus on dynamics in general. Also, try eliminating background tension. My classical teacher had me watch myself in a mirror and focus on my shoulders. In the beginning I had a tendency to keep them in a shrugged position and that tension worked its way right to my fingers eventually. Make sure your body feels relaxed. Find a comfortable sitting (or standing) position and bring the instrument to you within this position. Don’t contort yourself or lean or twist your torso towards where the instrument happens to be.
TL;DR;
Anyway, I’m rambling like I tend to. I think my main points are to either try something brand new OR see if there’s some way you can work with what you have but reduce tension. Also, more videos would be great so we know exactly what advice to give.
Yes I had some videos posted, Troy was trying to be encouraging, he’s cool like that. I’m very objective about my own playing and it was bad, I can do it better now, but not faster.
I’ve fought with my body/nervous system my whole life, I was horrible at sports and most other physical activities. I just don’t know what the issue is tbh. I partially made the post because I’m just so fed up with my damn body and brain not doing things it should be able to do.
There’s been times when I find something, but I can’t remember it, it doesn’t stick and the next day I can’t do it again. Frustrating ADHD memory problems I guess, nothing gets into permanent memory unless I drill it in there for many hours and even then I’ll forget it. I mean it makes me more creative but I get mad because I can’t play what I want to play. It’s very frustrating and it makes me angry which I have to be careful of because of health/heart issues.
I don’t want to be Yngwie or anything, but I’d like to be able to play the damn stuff in my head at least. It’s more the random inconsistency, which is often extreme with me. Is it like that for everyone? Doesn’t seem like it, sure they have days of brilliance, but the baseline is much higher.
I’ve just hit 50, mind you I’ve been playing off and on now since I was 16, and back then it seemed like I could learn and play anything just about, but now its like trying to hammer a nail with a wet sock, haha.
I’ve tried every motion and example here, experimented endlessly, found stuff that sorta works or I could build on, but then forgot it because again memory issues. I think part of the problem might be that I can’t think fast enough, I can’t visualize the notes or hear them in my head fast either. Perhaps this is the issue, I’m just slow brained, I don’t know.
Have you tried focusing on accents? This sounds like a chunking problem. Even if it’s at a speed 10 - 15% below the target tempo that might help get you thinking about the whole group of notes as an entity rather than each individual note. I don’t think anyone can really “think” as fast as the speeds of the players most of us around here admire.
I get this as well. I have been working on a new technique recently, and sometimes during a practice session, I feel like i’m getting somewhere, then I come back the next day and I have forgotten exactly what I was doing and have to go over sections in the primer again.
I know its different for different people, but i’m fairly confident that you would get some kind of fast picking motion if you keep going at it (which can be incredibly frustrating if it continuously doesn’t seem to work. I think everyone has been there ).
You could try focusing on 1 thing (e.g. a specific picking technique) that you want to be able to do. Forget about everything else for now. I know that sometimes when I go to practice something in particular, I can be distracted by other things I also want to learn - which isn’t a bad thing - but if you’re just wanting to get a basis for a fast picking motion, focusing your practice on simple things that help with this might help you focus your practice.
Another thing (which you may have already done, if so, this is largely irrelevant) is that its ok to take a break. Sometimes its the best option if you find yourself getting frustrated. I have spent hours and hours practicing things with little improvement, and although I don’t want to stop until I see some kind of improvement, if I don’t take a break, I’ll keep getting annoyed with myself, and thus be less motivated to play later. I know @Troy has mentioned that he has sometimes gone months without playing guitar because he doesn’t feel motivated to play, but he is still an incredible player! So taking breaks wont make you worse
Edit: This is where Troy talks about taking breaks:
It actually says he took a break from a ‘particular instrument’ which may or may not mean guitar, but it still applies to guitar
Thats great! That suggests that you must be doing something right
I know this hasn’t been advice targeted to help you learn a specific motion, but I don’t feel that qualified to advise you, but there are many great players on the forum who could help with that
I hope this helps, and remember that we often think we are worse at guitar than we really are, so the reality is probably that you’re quite a bit better than you realise
If anything I have said is incorrect, please feel free to correct me
I don’t like to waste people’s time. We’re all getting older, and there are only so many hours in a day to do the thing we enjoy. If I said it was really good, it was because I thought it was really good!
Do you have any clips of your current playing? Let’s take a look.
I don’t like to waste people’s time. We’re all getting older, and there are only so many hours in a day to do the thing we enjoy. If I said it was really good, it was because I thought it was really good!
I didn’t mean to imply you were blowing smoke up my ass or anything, it was OK, but as I said I’m super critical because I feel like as long as I’ve been playing and how much time I’ve put in, I should be much much better than I am. I’m learning to be less self critical, I think it might be part of my stumbling as my personal standards are too high. But if you shoot for Pluto you’ll at least hit the moon right?
It’s hard for me to put out me sucking in public, so I need to try the private uploads you’ve added to the site. Thanks for that! I do want help from some other players too so I’ll have to try and be less self conscious about it… ya’ll are so good at some stuff it’s a bit daunting and I get embarrased.
I don’t remember how thoroughly we tested this but the TC feature on the main site has a visibility level of “unlisted”. That is also possible for the video itself so you could always upload videos and set them to “unlisted” and PM the link to anyone on here who is not Troy or Tommo. These “other players” you mention That way you can get some pretty granular review possibilities and not have to feel too exposed. I know exactly how you feel. The absolute worst playing I do tends to happen when I turn on the camera lol!
Hey @ScottyB , I was meaning to reply earlier but had a busy weekend in the “real world” (sometimes I go there, but try not to stay too long ).
I see you got many useful comments.
One thing I wanted to add: have you checked if you have similar issues when you take the guitar out of the equation? I know you already took the table tapping tests. So, do these feel more comfortable / sustainable over longer periods without pain or discomfort?
Another “wild” experiment you can try: have you ever attempted a tremolo left-handed? (OR right handed if you already play lefty). Putting aside the lower accuracy / lack of familiarity etc., does it present the same difficulties in terms of feel?
I’m asking all this because 99.9% of the time when people say they can’t play fast (or they find it too fatiguing), it’s not due to a real lack of joint speed. It’s due to the fact that the way they interact with the instrument is wrong at some level*. Usually, by finding the root of the problem and making a deliberate change there is a sudden improvement.
This is the best approach. If you want us to look over your playing in detail we’re happy to do it. Based on my comments in the previous thread, I suspect that there are aspects of your technique that are actually working very well. And if so, maybe we can help you identify what those are, so you can cross them off the list of things to worry about.
More generally, it’s easy to lose objectivity about your own playing, and expend a lot of energy on things that don’t really need fixing. This can be a mentally exhausting distraction. This is where another set of eyeballs can help.
@tommo Yes, I’ve tried to play “lefty” that’s a huge no, it’s like learning to walk again. Back when I picked up the instrument I immediately took to it righty and I was playing Pipeline and Born to Be Wild inside a couple of weeks and quickly moved on to Ozzy and Priest and stuff. As you know back then, there was nothing like this site, so we were on our own, and learned really bad habits in the process which I’ve mostly undone. Which leads me to…
@Troy I think you hit the nail on the head, there’s something I’m missing. That’s often the case with me in general. I have taken to heart and gotten pretty good at “throwing away the things that don’t work” but it may be a case where it’s something I’m overlooking as you say. I feel like I’m on the edge of becoming a great player, it’s just that last hurdle I keep stumbling over.
I’ll get some stuff up tomorrow, I had phys therapy today so feeling a bit burned.
Now that I think about it, I’ve always found guitar shapes very uncomfortable and its hard to get it into a position that is for me. I want a guitar with a more “heart” shape so it fits in the center of my body better and is bigger like maybe a 335 as I have a tall body and I end up hunched over the guitar. I cannot play the guitar with it on my right knee at all, this causes me extreme discomfort, so I use more of a classical position, but that makes it more difficult to play on the 5th fret or below. I think guitars tend to be designed for looks and not for comfort, something for me to think about.
I’m tall too, 6 foot 4, and yep it’s uncomfortable at times with any shape. When sitting please pay attention not to have your knees in a level above your hips, as this creates tension in the lower back.
I have a foot stool that I put my left foot on sometimes so I don’t have to support the neck, supporting the neck is really bad for my ulnar nerve which I’ve already had problems with. I am careful to sit straight up if I can and not hunch over so the foot stool really helps with that.
An update on this, I FINALLY FINALLY found a motion! OMG it took forever but I finally found one that works for me.
I’m definitely a DSX motion but only slightly, my motion is almost horizontal to where I don’t get fatigued quickly. The start with speed thing I guess, and I’ve quickly been able to incorporate it.
I stumbled across it by just going “damnit I’m going to just do this and let my body figure it out” like I did when I was 16, in combination with watching Tom Gilroy’s videos on his picking technique. I just choked up on the pick a bit more so as little as comfortable is poking out and that instantly worked for me.
I have to figure out how to play on the higher strings with muting using this technique or just go back to my other learned motions to do that. I can’t really mute the strings for the right tone how I want it to sound with this motion so I’ll just have to keep developing my usx motion which I use for rhythm playing. I’ve already figured out how to use helper motions and I can do some stuff I could never ever do before and it really charged me up!
I’m excited to post some videos now showing my breakthrough, gonna do it today.
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