Increasing the speed of tremolo picking - please send help

Technique Critique
#22

So, it seems like the only thing to do now is to put some hours/days/weeks of work into this, right?
Is there any strategy on how to approach the practice the best?
Training proper movements at slower tempo?
Just forcing myself to try and play the thing at 100% hoping it will finally click?

To give some insight - whenever I had to play anything with fast tremolo I would put my hand in pronated position, get all tense and just bash the strings as fast as I can. But this way does not give nearly enough control to switch strings or stay true to the metronome.

Now I try to use suppination, and that is a partial success - I have much more control and can relax a bit, but I am still yet to discover the proper picking mechanics, like how to make each stroke even and pronounced. I tried to have the pick at an angle, using the edge, and while it makes it easier to pick strings fast, it also sounds mushy.

And also I realised that it is not the speed that I need to improve - my hand is perfectly capable of reaching the desired tempo, I need more control over it - to make it even, in time, and to be able to switch strings freely. Also, I need this to be more reliable - one day I am struggling to pick at 120 at all, and one day 180 seems suspiciously easy!

EDIT: one more thing. It seems slighly more douable with small, thick and pointy pick, BUT it constantly slips out of my fingers, I rub my index against higher strings and it is difficult to switch to lower strings.
Maybe I am overanalysing it, who knows, but that’s what I noticed.

#23

I’m not claiming to have the final word here, but all I can say is what worked for me, and I play this style every day, sometimes for many hours. And what worked best for my repertoire was practicing to the song, accuracy be damned. No metronome practice, no “notching up”, just going for it. And in the end, I was able to play cleanly. I haven’t yet found a song where this method of practice has failed me.

In that black metal thread I linked, most people who played in this style agreed they did that sort of practice too. Now, I can’t TELL you what to do, I can only suggest. There’s no word of god here.

Just keep the following in mind:

  1. The bulk of neuroscience research, the research/conversations/interviews Troy has done, and the experiences of great players in the practice room suggests that “going for it” and trying to replicate a fast motion by immediately attempting things at tempo is valid. Interesting experiment here, check it out: https://bulletproofmusician.com/struggling-to-get-a-tricky-passage-up-to-tempo-try-this-clever-practice-technique/

  2. Around here, it’s agreed that if what you’re doing isn’t producing a desired result, you need to switch things up. Affectionately referred to as “shuffling the deck”. In a micro sense, this could be changing your pick out for another one, changing your grip, etc. In a larger sense, changing your approach to practice.

I strongly encourage you to ditch the metronome practice and only practice the parts you are struggling with to the song for an entire week. Make it a challenge to yourself. Refuse to slow down no matter how frustrated you might get. Put the metronome away and you could wind up surprised.

#24

That’s more or less what I am doing now.
However I had the metronome turned on in DAW when practicing the song with backing track, should I just turn it off completely?

#25

Okay, great. Yeah, I’d recommend following the drummer exclusively. Try to match the song exclusive of any clicks. In other words, follow only what you’d hear if you were listening to the song in your spare time. Post back with your results it’d be awesome to see.

#26

First, I think @guitarenthusiast is giving good advice here.

Second, regarding pick: I suggest trying a full-size, thick and pointy pick. Jazz III XL is my favorite (I use the black “stiffo” nylon ones). They don’t present the grip problems some people experience with the “standard” Jazz IIIs. Dunlop Ultex Sharp (variety of thicknesses) is also very good for keeping a bright attack while picking very fast.

#27

Here’s my try with just raw guitars, no backing track unfortunately - Soundcloud will not allow me to upload with backing track due to copyrights.

https://soundcloud.com/damian-piekut/888raw/s-7CUx8

I think it is triplets, not straight 16th.

That’s the one I am using the most actually.

EDIT:
This is the best I can do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qa6nNaNrBY&feature=youtu.be

Note the video was taken separately.
Does this sound OK for you guys? I can’t count all the notes played, but DAW says some might be missing…

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#28

Sounds pretty good to me. And I could be imagining things, but to me you seem more relaxed here than in the video at the start of the thread. Looks like maybe you’re using a wrist posture that’s a little more flexed?

#29

Correct.
And that was at 3AM, after sooo many hours trying to do it, and after accidentally deleting an almost perfect version…

There still is another riff in that song that is somewhat more difficult, more dynamic, but I guess it is just a matter of time before I master it.

#30

I’m assuming you’re referring to a string skipping part? Those in the context of tremolo picking can be very brutal at high speeds.

#31

Well, yes, next riff has more string skipping that the one above.
But I tried yesterday and I managed 150 BPM with the next riff, 160 was just a tad too fast.

What I want to play is tricky, because I need to increase both the speed and accuracy.

#32

On Emperors Anthems To The Welkin at Dusk I think theres prolly numerous examples of sustained 180 bpm plus 16th note or better tremolo riffed songs (generally the songs arent literally 180 bpm, but if im not mistaken 180 at 16th notes would be 12 notes per second tremolo? Which isnt thaat fast)

Satyricon has a great example as well off of Nemesis Divina “Dawn of a New Age”

Those are just two examples off the top of my head. Im sure there are entire black metal albums played pretty much that speed or better.

edit oh shit this post is old af

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#33

I can play most of Emperor’s early catalogue front to back, and some cases even faster than they’ve recorded it. Their live versions are generally faster and cut shorter to compensate for the insane increase in speed and endurance required to perform it. Here is me playing Ye Entrancemperium at 260 BPM for a different thread we had on here about Eddie Van Halen tremolo picking. This is much faster than they recorded that song.

A common misconception in extreme metal is that because you are playing at a particular tempo, you are necessarily playing a 16th note or sextuplet subdivsion. This isn’t necessarily the case, at all. Many times, players are playing what is known as unmetered tremolo, or as simply as fast as possible. See here for what this means:

https://www.quora.com/How-many-times-should-a-note-be-played-tremolo-on-guitar-Would-four-times-be-ok-or-can-it-be-more-than-4-times

See also another thread we’ve had on this: Tremolo picking for black metal

^ This thread is a must-read as BlackInMind and JudasPriester give fantastic advice.

But yeah, the assertion that 180 BPM 16th notes is a skill that “hordes” of guitarists possess is flat-out incorrect. Sure, maybe from a raw mechanical standpoint of just seeing how fast you can go, but in terms of applying such speed to a wide variety of controlled musical examples? No man, sorry. If that were the case, this forum wouldn’t exist. Playing 16th notes straight at 180 BPM to the grid, locked in, for minutes straight as a continuous stream of notes with no breaks for chords or dyads is near unheard of. I can’t think of one recorded example in the thousands upon thousands of metal songs I’ve heard.

What I think you mean to say is that unmetered tremolo at high tempos is very common. for minutes straight. Which it is. You are 100% right. It’s important to always make the distinction between metered and unmetered. If you don’t, you will be chasing subdivisions at speeds that are either impossible to achieve or require a lifetime’s work.

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#34

The beats there is faster than ye entrancemperium but the tremoloing is actually slightly slower.

Umm this metered vs unmetered thing… i dont think anyone plays unmetered. Look i gotta be honest i heard that term the first time today. Im assuming it means that the tremolo speed isnt tied to the music in a clean ratio that is unchanging…

And i personally have never played unmetered. Even going as fast as i could it would absolutely be metered, and sometimes with every 6th or 8th note accented (even when approaching something like 30 picks per second). I cant imagine tremoloing in such a haphazard way that its not symmetrical like that.

As for the 180 bpm thing i wanted to make sure i knew what i was talking about because i never use a metronome so for kicks i set it to 180 just now (just having woke up) and played 4 notes per tick. That was pretty easy, i got bored after 5 minutes solid. That doesnt seem like a very advanced level. “Hordes” is a word that would definitely describe the number of guys that can do that :slight_smile: probably every death metal guitarist, certainly every black metaller.

I mean if u want i can record probably 10 minutes straight of it. Maybe 15.

** edit ** i tried again for 10 minutes with a metronome. I could do that all day…

#35

Huh?

Did you read the thread I linked? We have a member here who in the past had slowed down a 90s death metal song and disproved what you said. Unmetered playing is all over death metal, and was incredibly popular before a lot of modern playings started cheating their recordings/performances by punching in note by note. Granted, some use that purely for a production effect, but not all do. Some have to do it because they actually can’t play their parts. It varies.

I do, as you saw in the clip above. The notes are not completely locked into the time grid between the chords that I’m hitting.

Are you implying you can pick 30 notes per second in a tremolo context? If so, that’s extremely impressive.

I tend to take people at their word, no need to post proof. Once again, it would be impressive.

Anyways, for some reason this topic comes up every few months on the forum, always in the context of black metal. The other two guys - one a professional guitarist - have more or less stopped commenting on it and I think I will do the same.

We can respectfully agree to disagree on a few points. Welcome to the forum and if you have any questions or you want to continue the exchange you can message me.

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#36

Well the tremoloing is slightly faster on the emperor album, and the strummed power chords are played much faster. So thats kinda all whacky timing on that video actually. But yeah ye entrancemperium sounds like 205 bpm id say? So its faster at a slower metronome bpm.

Prolly pretty close to that with a bit of practice. I stopped going full retard a while back tho.

Maybe my understanding is askew if that would be impressive… does 180 bpm at 16th notes equate to 12 notes per second?

Hmm yeah. Part of me was like “dont bother arguing with anyone…” but the other part of me was like “nah if i think something dont make sense i gotta speak on it” hahaha.

#37

@guitarenthusiast, @Rob_The_Viking, (a sincere) thank you for keeping it civil - this is precisely the kind of topic where £$%^ can go down in internet forums :slight_smile:

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#38

Damn, you guys really got a solid thing going here. Im really impressed by the care that you guys take on the forums, the research you do, everything is fantastic.

But anyways yeah a part of me actually would like to see a “tremolo argument gone horribly awry”. That would be kinda funny hahaha.

edit but i wont be the cause of it… :smiley:

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#39

But… Guys, I’ve already done it:

(Don’t mind the camera jumping between rythm and lead, lead part is almost constant 180 BPM 16th note tremolo.)

Took some practice, just as everything else in life.
And yes, it is to the grid, both guitars - rythm and leand - quad tracked, even added fake bass line by pitch-shifting guitar.
So yeah, it’s quite possible.

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#40

yep
from my exeprience once I got beyond ~220…240bpm it’s hard to control rhythm and it starts to drift, so my guess is that after some bpm people play ‘unmetered’.
As for 180 bpm I don’t think it’s difficult, it’s just a question of technique. I mean, I play slow bluese mostly but even I can play ~200 bpm 16th tremolo without struggling (as long as I want).

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#41

Great playing, but your video and recorded playing still exhibits the metered/unmetered switching, particularly from 2:23-2:35. You’re striking some notes slower than others which would not at all be to the grid. Your problems start to appear when you switch strings.

We’ve had these assertions on here before, where someone claims to be tremolo picking at 200 BPM 16th notes and it turns out they are actually picking closer to 175-180, with slight jumps here and there.

Just so we’re clear, I’m not claiming that playing at 180 BPM 16th notes is impossible lol. Or 200, or even 240. I’ve hit at all of these speeds and have video and audio proof. You can check my post history. It is very, very possible. It’s just rare that it occurs in metal for very long, multiple minute durations with robotically tight timing. Your video doesn’t disprove this.

So once again, my comments are not on possibility, but of frequency of these sorts of passages in black metal.

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