Injuries from working to change technique?

I noticed @Troy jokingly mention something about talking with an orthopedic doctor in one of his seminars a few months back.

I have spent a lot of time trying different CTC techniques and I think that the combination of: 1. being 45+ years old at the start of this process, 2. spending long hours working to change life-long habits, and 3. already holding too much tension in my shoulders and having some previous mild overuse injures have helped to exacerbate occasional pain in my right neck/shoulder/arm area.

I’m in no way blaming CTC for anything, it has improved my playing and understanding of possible mechanics but I’m wondering if anyone else feels they might have overdone it. Especially guys of a certain age like me.

I’m also asking because I’ve had adult students want to work on their “chops” and I’m starting to wonder at what point we need to really rest, hydrate, etc. rather than push ourselves to the limit as I am prone to do.

@TroyI hope you will clarify if you’d had any physical issues while working to master all of these approaches.

Thanks!

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Edit: Because I have no manners, sorry you’re having these issues!

Yes, we met with researchers at the Hospital for Special Surgery here in NYC. The name sounds scary! But it’s a research hospital and that, not surgery or injury, was our interest. They published a study on wrist motion where they were able to measure the different ways the wrist can move in everyday activities. The motions they documented are similar to those used in guitar picking. It’s on our hard drives, and we’ll edit it, when we figure out how to clone ourselves to add more hours into the day.

I had some mild forearm strain maybe fifteen years ago when I was trying to figure out how two-way pickslanting worked and came home from work every day and did that every night for hours. What is “that” you ask? Good question, I didn’t really know. I probably just repeated scales forever. I didn’t really know what I was looking for, or what I was doing to get there. I stopped playing for a week or so, and the strain went away. That’s about it from guitar playing. More recently, video editing has been a real killer - thousands of mouse clicks and drags on a trackpad will destroy forearms. I got an ergonomic mouse and that’s much better now.

In general, I don’t think marathon guitar practice is how physical skill learning really works best. And over the years I have developed what amounts to my own strategies for trial and error which rely more on lots of little tests with downtime in between. As a result, I tend not to play huge amounts, and when I do, it’s very start and stop because I’m always filming myself. It’s like playing for a few minutes, then watching footage, then playing. Then getting a sandwich. And so on.

When you pile on the big reps, I assume it’s because it’s not working. That means you are doing it wrong, so what’s the point in repeating it? Instead I think motor learning requires lots of tests and changes and more tests, with downtime in between trying to find what works and then trying to replicate it a few minutes later. In other words, it’s the changes that you yourself make to your form in between the repeats that are really making the progress. And/or the sheer randomness of picking up the guitar and doing it right by accident, once, and then trying to figure out what you did. As things start to come together, progress happens by putting the guitar down, coming back a few minutes later, and doing it again. The recall. That’s what makes it permanent.

People in music school who have no choice but to practice really long, complicated things for hours that kill their fretting hand, I feel for them, truly. I don’t know any way around that. Others who have lived that life will know much more than I. But from a technique learning perspective, that process boils down to sometimes very brief flashes of insight, and in my experience hammering away for hours is not really how you get there.

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Scroll wheel on a trackball pad… Grr.

No issues here. My professional background is as a Sign Language interpreter. Way back in the mid 90’s, I developed some hand/wrist/forearm pain from overuse, and from possible poor technique. As American Sign Language (ASL) is one of my native languages (parents both Deaf), I have signed my whole life. It was a part of my daily routine for communication. However, when I began working 8 + hours per day interpreting, which is different from conversation, pain developed. I did not do a scientific survey or research as the internet was in it’s infancy at that time, and I didn’t document what I did to relieve/heal/end the pain, but basically, there were several things I do believe helped as the pain went away and never returned. Some of the things I did were: adjusted standing/sitting and other body posture, took breaks at regular intervals, began to take supplements, of which I found those containing SELENIUM and ZINC to be most helpful, as well as a change of diet from primarily junk food (I was a single guy who didn’t cook) to more healthy foods. Once I took the above mentioned actions, the pain (possible Carpal Tunnel Syndrome???) vanished forever. I do NOT recommend surgery for CTS. It only relieves the current symptoms, and CTS can return. I know of multiple Sign Language Interpreters who have undergone the surgery, with varying degrees of success, who have had the symptoms return later or have had their motor movements altered as a result. More recently, Noa Kageyama’s interview here, as well as his website/email list, is a source of good info. He recently had an email/article on his website regarding how sitting affects performance. Good read with relevant info to your issue. Another technique which I’ve been researching for my current work in the language field (working with non-native English speakers who wish to improve their English speaking skills in fields ranging from casual to professional/business English, primarily clients from East, Southeast and Middle Eastern Asian countries) has led me to to discover and investigate something called the Alexander Technique. I am not endorsing this technique or method, but it does have some interesting components. Including two links from which you can research further if you wish.

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Thanks so much for your reply. I knew that you had spoken to experts about wrist motion but I misunderstood the comment you made in passing about speaking to a doctor. I just wondered if there was anything we should be aware of. I’m glad there’s not.

FWIW I think what pain I’m having - which is mild and occasional at this point - is caused by a combination of an overuse injury from doing a marathon painting session in my home a few years ago and holding some tension in my shoulders when a play.The tension this has gotten much better over the years but I’ve recently taken some beginning yoga classes and I have realized that even when I think I’m relaxed I’m still holding some tension unconsciously so its a work in progress.

I agree that long marathon practice sessions are not usually the most productive but I often teach up to 8 hours of classes and lessons a day and have a guitar in hand much of the time. I also had to work to change my picking habits from the oddball way I’d been doing it for close to 30 years. Now that I’ve accomplished that, adding new variations is becoming easier.

Thanks again!

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Thanks for the reply.

I have a degree in music and one of my first teachers in college was an Alexander Technique practitioner. I received some basic info then but nothing specific to my technique and posture at the time. I investigated finding someone in my area but it just never panned out. I do have a book on Alexander Technique that I should dig into…

As I mentioned above, the introduction of some basic yoga is helping a lot. Quick story: I was intimidated by attending a yoga class the first time but the class was small, was all men with limited experience, and it turned out we all play guitar! Our instructor does a great job of keeping things simple and she seems to know each of our trouble spots and introduces poses specific to our needs.

I’ll have to explore the supplements. I do eat relatively healthy - I went vegetarian four years ago and have had no fast food or soft drinks since then.

I just found Noa Kageyama’s article about how to sit in a chair properly and will check it out. I started standing for all performances several years ago because I felt that I really started to hunch over if I sat for too long. But I suspect standing for too long has it’s disadvantages as well. Thanks for this.

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That makes so much sense. I think that’s what I’ve been doing for years, decades. Gotta change my ways.

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I’ve had some slight injuries recently related to shifting towards proper pick holding technique, pickslanting, and the subsequent extended playing time since it began to speed up my overall development as a player.

What I’ve found is that ergonomics has played a huge part in avoiding injury. I have smaller than average hands, mind you, and I cannot play an Ibanez Wizard neck without doing injury to my fretting hand (I hang my thumb over the neck edge at times).

I have had try a bunch of different neck shapes and frets to find the sweetspot for my ergonomics. I recently had my MIM Charvel neck refretted with the biggest Jescar stainless frets I could get (.118 x .58) in order to find the sweetspot for the neck profile.

This neck used to give me pain with extended playing, and it does no more.

Also consider string tension. There are certain things you can do to reduce the tension such as thinner gauge strings, raising the string bar above your Floyd nut, and lowering your bridge.

Ernie Ball Super Slinky strings have lower than average roundwound strings, but standard .009 gauge high e. This makes them easy to bend and puts less stress on your fretting fingers.

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I’m not sure why I periodically forget this! :man_facepalming:

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UPDATE: After close to three years of almost constant pain on my right side and trying chiropractic treatment, osteopathic manipulation, physical therapy, (prescribed) muscle relaxants, and self-medicating with more beer than I should, yoga has been declared the healer. I have been feeling great for over a week now. YMMV obviously.

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Yeah I’ve had some issues with arthritis flare ups in my fingers on both right and left hands. With regards to the left hand I went down to 8s for a few months and then moved back to 9s and everything was OK.

With regards to the right fingers, I just had to ease up on how hard I was holding the pick and play with a bit more legato.

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I am getting nervous reading all this, at least when it comes to string gauge. :open_mouth:

I use 11 gauge, because I like the sounds, and it feels better. But I hope I am not doing any long-term damage. I don’t feel like I am stressing my joints, and I don’t bend that much, but I suppose it can be a hidden issue… that takes years to appear.

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I use different gauges on different guitars. I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I suspect my issues came from poor posture during long hours of practice and teaching. String gauge never seemed to be an issue unless the action was awful.

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If it feels comfortable, then I’m sure you’re OK. If you did feel stress then it would be sensible to change to a lighter gauge, at least for a while. Heavier strings do sound better IMO.

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