Jay-Z in Rock & Roll hall of lame

General Music Discussion
#10

I am by no means an expert, so I’d be so happy for your thoughts about my limited understanding. It seems to me that there is (1) hip-hop culture and (2) its creation, rap music. Rap does not inherently depend on hip-hop any more, as rapping can be [and often is] about anything. Hip-hop seems to still depend very heavily on rap as a means of expression (via lyrics).

Regarding sales, rap seems to be doing superbly, and it has influenced nearly every form of popular music that I can think of.

The hip-hop part is where things get interesting. I recall Vanilla Ice’s career being terminated when it turned out when he dishonestly said that he was from “the streets” (that talk about 9mm pistols and 12 gauge shotguns :rofl:). There were other studio gangsters for a while, but after that, there were real gangsters, where some had been shot multiple times. Some of the beefs became fatal (Tupac, Biggie, etc.). Some of the business people in the industry seemed to be legitimate thugs (Suge Knight).

Some of today’s artists have impressive criminal pedigrees, and their messages are often not the best advice. Are these messages what Wynton was writing about? I suspect so. But compare to GG Allin: I assume that his fans didn’t really take the lyrics seriously and destroy their lives. But does some of the lyrical content of rap actually take lives, in the sense that it sometimes encourages criminal behavior in young people? I don’t know, but I suspect so.

I was almost going to post a Vanilla Ice video but felt ashamed, so I will redeem myself with what seems to be solid advice about the music industry.

#11

I mean, I don’t want to be flippant here, but to the best of my knowledge neither could Robert Plant, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, and while Mick Jagger could play a bit of guitar, he certainly didn’t get there because he was an influential guitarist.

As far as Jay-Z? Eh, whatever. Let him have his fun, it’s not like I only listen to bands in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, or would stop listening to a band because they didn’t get a spot. God knows I’ll never be in there, and I’m not going to begrudge Jay-Z a spot for that.

#12

I don’t really understand what the HOF is… what is its purpose? And who decides who goes in? Is it some mystery panel? Sorry for being dense - I have always heard of it, but never bothered to look at it.

#13

At first when I saw this thread I thought “WTF”??? It’s rock 'n roll HOF not rap/hip hop HOF. Then I read this:

https://futurerocklegends.com/The_Rap_Question.php#:~:text=The%20Rock%20Hall’s%20primary%20function,Against%20the%20Machine%2C%20and%20countless

It makes some good points. Particularly about artists that influence or perpetuate rock 'n roll…as well as the fact that “Rock 'n Roll” is sort of dead…How can we accept that Buddy Holly and Led Zeppelin are both under the same blanket genre? They’re both in the HOF though.

Plus, I mean, does anyone actually ever say the full phrase “Rock 'n Roll” anymore? When people ask me what I like to listen to, right after I mention classical, a bunch of other stuff and slightly before they become sorry they asked me, I’ll say “oh yeah I like rock too. Mostly classic rock and some virtuoso guitarists”. Never ever do I say “Rock 'n Roll” lol What most of us actually are into is probably something that evolved from Rock 'n Roll…metal, alternative, virtuoso electric guitar music etc etc etc

Jay-Z probably fits some criteria for how people get elected.

Me neither. It’s probably similar to the Oscar’s or Grammy’s or any type of thing where it’s not like actual fans vote. It’s a committee of special, privileged industry insiders. Members of the illuminati are likely there too :fire: :fire: :fire:

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#14

It’s very similar to the Academy Awards, except that in addition to the ceremony, there’s also a museum that’s open year-round. It’s marketing for the industry, by the industry. The goal is to sell tickets, and to increase global engagement (and therefore revenue) of popular musical entertainment merchants.

The decision about who to induct into the Hall of Fame is most likely based on how that decision will impact revenue for the museum and the industry as a whole, just like for other forms of entertainment like basketball, frisbee, midget auto racing, or Magic: The Gathering. Fans don’t get to vote for the same reason that people who buy butter don’t make decisions on the marketing strategies for the American Dairy Products Institute.

From here:

I tend not to take corporate marketing too seriously, but some people are into it. To each their own.

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#15

We live in Bizarro world now.

#16

Jay-Z…

someone who talks over a music box, I hate it so much, I prefer elevator music …

#17

Only thing I’ll add to this (excellent) post is that there are also some pretty strong racial undertones that need to be considered here, when discussing whether or not a rapper - a primarily but not exclusively black genre - deserves to be recognized by the R&R HOF, which recognizes important acts from a primarily but not exclusively white genre that borrowed heavily from, well, a few genres, but two of which (blues and jazz) were almost entirely black, and have been largely uncredited.

And, considered in at least two ways I can think of - the obvious one, from a standpoint of reparations reflecting the marginalized role black musicians of any genre have held in pretty much any genre other than rap, and of the impact of representation, and a world where to this day rock musicians are almost all white and rap musicians are almost all black tends to steer black musicians looking to do contemporary music towards rap, and tends to cause white listeners to categorize black pop musicians as “rap” even when the reality may be a little more complex - as someone pointed out to me when I referred to Little Nas X as a rapper, recently.

It’s pretty complex, and on my end I’d rather not overthink it and favor a bigger tent rather than higher walls and a narrower focus.

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#18

Yeah, well said.

Also, thinking back on my comment about Buddy Holly → Led Zeppelin…I guess really LOTS of genres do this with sub-genres too. Rachmaninoff is “classical” and so is Haydn. Their music sounds nothing alike either lol! In the same vein, I can’t tell you how many laymen conversations I’ve had with people where they group jazz and blues as the same genre! I guess there is some slight overlap but the 2 are about as similar as ham and hamburgers. Both meat, both delicious but totally different haha!

A bigger tent starts to make a lot more sense. Granted, it’s a stretch to say that most rock is influenced by rap. But it’s clearly enough for the powers that be think it makes sense to put someone with Jay-Z’s success in their. I’ve honestly never even heard one Jay-Z song in my life. Maybe I should check him out.

Either way, now I’m gonna get nostalgic and and revisit some classic Snoop Dogg and pretend it’s the 90’s again. Or better yet, since we’re blurring the lines of genres, I’ll spin this excellent country cover:

My day just got a whole lot better :slight_smile:

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#19

In the end it’s just a list made by a small number of humans for whatever reason and criteria they came up with. Some will agree with it, most will disagree to some degree, and it all really doesn’t matter does it?

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#20

Whether or not hip hop artists belong in something called the “Rock and Roll Hall of Fame”, I don’t know. But it seems like more of a technical question based on whatever criteria the Hall uses.

However I will say that I’ve thought for a long time that hip hop has basically taken over for rock in all the ways that really matter. They’ve got all the rebelliousness, the danger, the swagger, the “you can’t do that on Ed Sullivan” vibe that rock lost long ago. Parents hate it, olds hate it, law enforcement hates it.

They’ve also got the inventiveness in repurposing gear in creative ways, like scratching on turntables and cobbling together tracks with samplers, just like rock people did with speaker cone and amp distortion.

They do musically fearless things that educated music types think of as “wrong”. I read an interview with Hank Shocklee, Public Enemy’s producer, where he talks specifically about deciding whether he wants to layer samples in a consonant or atonal way, and whether he wants the beat to be perfectly metronomic or purposefully mistimed, based on what the lyrics are going for. That’s pretty far outside the box thinking. And frankly it makes those of us who are still trying to play “correctly” through a II-V-I seem pretty tame.

But rock wasn’t really about writing songs or playing instruments or being some kind of virtuoso. It really wasn’t even about music at all — that was just the medium, not the message, right? I always thought the message was this:

And if you’re an '80s kid, you can’t help but notice the band names: Ratt, Trixter, Ludacris, Fabolos, Xzibit, XTC, DMX, Racer X, Static-X, Lil Nas X, XXXTentacion. So many XXXs. The torch of the artful misspelling has been passed!

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#21

Well said. Rock and roll is a big tent in my view. It is limitless. That’s the whole point.

#22

@Troy I rock with this entire sentiment.

#23

Rap is around fifty years old now (from the mid-1970’s). I think that something changed in music, where young and old people are often listening to the same thing. The only music that would make modern parents scream “turn it down” is classical. :rofl:

I eagerly await the arrival of the next genre—supposedly it was EDM—but nothing is changing significantly, Red Bull’s guide to the contrary:

#24

We guitarists had better get busy, huh? :laughing: 100% agree.

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#25

I should suffix what I wrote by saying that I’m pretty far from any kind of Nikki Sixx endorphin-seeking badass, so I don’t feel any pressure at all to be more rock in my ways. I just wish I had embraced the nerd sooner. But as you know, in the '80s that would have been like taping a “kick me” sign to your own back.

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#26

Check out how deep this is:

image

This classic Back to the Future scene includes a nerd, a kick-me sign, was filmed in the 80’s, but takes place back in the 50’s…*when people actually said “Rock 'N Roll”…If only it had a rapper in it I would have summarized this entire thread in one post. I was so close!!! :slight_smile: Still probably the closest thing that me, a nerd who will certainly never be in the Rock 'N Roll (or any) Hall of Fame, gets to a mic drop moment.

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#27

A little late replying here, but hey, I’m a 40 year old bond analyst. I don’t actually have a pocket protector, but I’ve got a couple good calculators scattered around my place. I know who I am. :laughing:

But, we as a genre need to do better. Take more chances, bring some fresh blood and some new ideas and a bit of new attitude to bear, throw caution and preconceived notions to the wind, and if not shock some people, at least surprise some people. I love rock, but we HAVE gotten a little stale.

Not saying it’s going to be me who shakes things up either - I write sort of bluesy instrumental “shred” stuff, which has an audience of approximately my parents, and maybe 20 strangers. But we can all just do our part to make rock music a little less predictable, at the margins.

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#28

When the Kinks were inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, Ray Davies’ speech included this bit: “And seeing everybody here tonight, it makes me realize that rock and roll has become respectable. What a bummer.”

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#29

As everyone knows, there are two types of music:
Country…
and Western.

In that spirit, remember it is Rock AND Roll.

P.S.
That “Gin ‘n’ Juice” cover was so cool.

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