Do you mean deviation or rotation when you say this? I’ve never been able to get even single-string licks past 8-10nps with deviation without introducing at least a bit of elbow.
2 Likes
Who do you think you are, Troy Grady? Oh wait… 
I concede he looks relaxed during Rock Discipline. This isn’t how he looks from Metropolis 2000 and later DVDs. His fist balls up tight when he goes into hypermode and there’s a lot of elbow action going on there. Are his bearish muscles biasing me? I guess it’s possible but I doubt it. But for now I will defer to you with the utmost faith that you will become so famous and influential in time that JP will have no choice but to expose his technique to the world through Masters in Mechanics. Maybe you can even get him to take his shirt off so we can see if he’s all arms or the full Kane Roberts. I’m actually more curious about that…
@ionas.iona
I was going to link you to the sped-up Gigantour version of TGP which he alternate-picked, but it’s unfortunately not available on YouTube at the moment. It’s quite harrowing to watch as he appears to be on the verge of going off the tracks at any moment, yet he keeps it together in impressive fashion. I was at the show in question and am still not sure if Portnoy kicked up the tempo just for fun or if that was the plan all along. It was funny seeing that at an event Megadeth was headlining since Megadeth during their golden era was known for playing all their songs faster live. Let me say this: Petrucci is usually relaxed. No one has the endurance to play through TGP’s rhythm parts (up-tempo at that) if they don’t play relaxed.
4 Likes
Who do you think you are, Troy Grady? Oh wait…
hahaha
about the TGP arpeggios… they are super hard to play with alternate picking in the first place anyway, so maybe that’s the reason he changed it to sweep maybe. The way I see it they can only be played with crosspicking technique
how do you do that by hitting all the notes with only DWPS (no hammer ons/pull offs)??? it seems impossible to me.
@ionas.iona Swiping! 
The way I think of it is this: any lick that’s entirely outside picking can be 1WPS and swiped. I think this is the source of the “outside picking is easy, inside picking is hard” idea that guitarists have (for me it was the opposite: 2WPS came easily to me when I was first learning, but I never figured out swiping).
1 Like
The whole ‘inside picking is hard’ idea always seems weird to me… for me inside picking is much easier. Rather than feeling like my pick is ‘trapped’ between strings it feels almost like I’m using the string as a trampoline to bounce my pick off towards the next string… which I know makes no sense as my pick goes through the string first 
but for some reason it feels way more natural to lead into the next string with the pick heading in the same direction (down pick for higher string, up pick for lower (thicker!) string) rather than trying to get the pick over the string and then switching direction to actually pick it.
Or maybe I’m just weird I don’t know…
5 Likes
@Horganovski
I find inside picking easier than outside picking, as well. Count me as a weirdo
@eric_divers
sorry but i still dont get it so please take a min to clarify this for me.
5 notes per string:
1-2-3-4-5 notes on D string, then 1-2-3-4-5 notes on G string, then 1-2-3-4-5 notes back on D string.
How do you do it with sweep and only DWPS?
1(D)-2(U)-3(D)-4(U)-5(D) D string (sweep to next string)
1(D)-2(U)-3(D)-4(U)-5(D) G string… then how do you move back to the D string? With DWPS your pick is trapped betweeen G and B string.
D: downstroke
U: Upstroke
Instead of sweeping, you pick through the muted G and then start that on an upstroke. Should be doable with only DWPS.
Edit to clarify: if you have the Pickslanting Primer, there should be a video on swiping there. This is different from sweeping.
4 Likes
@eric_divers
if I understood correctly, you are suggesting using DWPS to change string after a downstroke without sweeping.
But the main principle that I got from Primer about DWPS is that we change strings only after an upstroke (or sweep if it’s a downstroke), so I am not sure if the thing you are proposing works for 16ths at 200bpm.
Sorry, I should have been more specific - I wasn’t referring to this particular lick, more picking in general. I’ve tried the ‘Petrucci’ way and it just doesn’t feel natural to me no matter how much I work at it. Not for a moment trying to suggest it’s ‘wrong’, just doesn’t work for me. I guess I find the Yngwie/Eric Johnson style of picking fits my natural method a lot more.
1 Like
The Albert Lee Style of cross picking in my view is one of the best ways to gain access to crospicking if you are a DWPS kind of person there is not alot of extra work you will have to do except for learning the lift on the downstoke. It may be a little slower perhaps but it definitely opens doors to playing anything.
2 Likes
@Judmeister
thx man I will definitely check it out.
I thought it would be nice to post here some petrucci youtube videos with fairly good quality and angle for everyone to see and discuss. Btw I also observed that he is moving the thumb in many fast licks. check it out.
Stream of consiousness (picking angle at 4:00)
In the studio (picking angle at 0:18)
Purple rain (picking angle at 7:32)
1 Like
That’s exactly what I’m thinking as well. I’m really comfortable with DWPS so this type of crosspicking seems like the obvious choice. But I’m still not having any success trying to learn it.
1 Like
In the words of steve morse and john petrucci work on it with the inside picking. Try doing one note on a higher string then do like 3 notes on the lower string. like a pentatonic sequence and force yourself to stay in the DWPS without rotating your forearm. It will work with the inside gilberts too. it takes some time but i bet you do it already when rhythm playing doing chugga chugga stuff you just have to do it with single notes now.
I’ve been obsessing about the 3rd erotomania solo for a while. In fact, the last lick is an excellent exercise in odd nps picking technique.
From the clip above, I would guess that JP is using dwps with swiping, which is a very senible choice at these speeds! However for me this is a bit uncomfortable as uwps feels more natural to me for speed picking. A great option to make it a bit easier is to add a couple of legato notes here and there. When I’ll finally record a decent take (both fully picked and with some “cheating”) I will post it here.
PS: I am not sure JP really does a sextuplet at the end, would seem impossibly fast at 160bpm! I think David Escobar’s transcription on youtube is how the lick is played, and it excusively involves quintuplets.
2 Likes
PS: I am not sure JP really does a sextuplet at the end, would seem impossibly fast at 160bpm! I think David Escobar’s transcription on youtube is how the lick is played, and it excusively involves quintuplets.
it’s indeed quintuplets, if you see the tabs I posted above it shows it clearly (5 notes per string).
The specific lick is played with only alternate picking starting with downstroke, with no legato or sweeps by petrucci (and escobar as well). For me the most possible way to do it is TWPS since it’s odd number of notes per string. Although as we observed maybe petrucci is oalso using crosspicking and thumb movement to change strings. But as Troy said we need
proper camera angle to be sure… maybe he ll get it with a masters in mechanics interview in the future
Actually my bet would be that he is not using TWPS, but exclusively DWPS, when there is a string crossing that does not “work” with DWPS, he is simply hitting all the strings in between, but he is muting them perfectly with the left hand so we can’t hear them.
Also, the sextuplet I mentioned is the last group of notes in bar 141 in your tabs. I think JP is not playing 5 - 3 -1 on the low E, but just 3 - 1 so that the last chunk remains a group of five.
2 Likes
Also, the sextuplet I mentioned is the last group of notes in bar 141 in your tabs. I think JP is not playing 5 - 3 -1 on the low E, but just 3 - 1 so that the last chunk remains a group of five.
The official tabs show them as sex tuplets as well but in that speed I dont even know if the ear can hear the difference.
Actually my bet would be that he is not using TWPS, but exclusively DWPS, when there is a string crossing that does not “work” with DWPS, he is simply hitting all the strings in between, but he is muting them perfectly with the left hand so we can’t hear them.
I wouldnt bet on that because hitting extra strings give you extra resistance and also make the result sound sloppy.
1 Like
Definitely not in all cases, and we know because we have lots of footage of this. Take this classic example from the Batio interview:
https://troygrady.com/interviews/michael-angelo-batio-2007/clips/fours-circular-upstroke/
Mike is hitting the strings here on the upstrokes, and if you know what to listen for you can hear small bits of it. But in a full mix with a band, like you’re seeing in these Petrucci clips, it would be very difficult to hear, and very difficult to even know it was happening.
3 Likes
When I say ‘wrist’ I just mean either deviation or flexion extension. These two often operate together, so sometimes “wrist” really is the simplest way of putting it. I’m not referring to forearm rotation or elbow flexion/extension, and I really don’t see lots of it in John’s playing on Rock Discipline or in the clips posted here. He seems to be mainly a wrist player, like Gilbert or Andy Wood.
In Andy’s interview he comments that the thinks there’s some elbow involvement when he gets faster - and that may be the case. We’d need to slap some electrodes on him to know for sure. But even if that’s happening, Andy’s wrist still appears to move relative to his arm when he’s playing quickly. Unlike, say, Vinnie Moore, where there doesn’t appear to be any wrist movement.
5 Likes
@Troy
I had no idea this could be done without making the result sloppy but it’s indeed very difficult to undestand/hear that he is hitting both strings when has to change string.