Just playing songs - developer or time waster?

Playing Technique
#41

I don’t know where I said that, but I’ve typed lots of stuff on here so I don’t doubt I said that!

I wouldn’t read too much into what I did as a teenager. I did pretty much exclusively random jamming in my room and almost never methodical practice in the sense of playing an exercise a million times at slow-ish speeds to master it. Of course I * tried * that, because you were supposed to. I tried it on descending fours type phrases, all picked, across the strings, because I thought that’s what Yngwie was doing. But it was so incredibly boring to me and the lack of results was an instant downer. I couldn’t bring myself to keep doing it, and always felt guilty about that. So I would basically put on “Unchained” really loud and rock out.

Of course, a lot of that type of random jamming ends up being repetitive. All I knew the box position licks and a few Yngwie type scale fingerings. So that in itself is repetive practice of a sort. But I’m not sure if that’s really what is being asked about here.

Yes I slowed down phrases to figure out what they were. At some point in high school I could do the “Hot For Teacher” solo pretty much note for note, or as best I could tell from transcribing it. But that’s only because it was working. I didn’t find that stuff hard, so what I thought of as “real practice” wasn’t necessary.

Anyway I assume that’s not really what people are asking about when they post these kinds of questions. I think the bigger picture is still very simple. When it’s motor learning / motion acquisition, go fast first, and slow down a tiny bit to try and get more notes clean and figure out and/or become conscious of what the motion really is.

2 Likes
#42

Hopefully some ideas from my experiences can help some.

In 2020, I dedicated the year to 2 things: Learning Troy’s pickslanting concepts, and ditching “exercises” for learning difficult songs/solos from my favorite artists. In my previous 10+ years of guitar practice, I did mostly exercises and rarely learned any songs.

I grew more in 2020 than I had in the previous 3-4 years. Learning Petrucci’s The Best of Times, Under A Glass Moon, and Breaking All Illusions solos alone took a tremendous amount of effort, but I picked up so many new techniques, improved my speed, and most importantly - improved my overall feel.

I still ended up doing “exercises”, as I would break down the faster and more challenging segments and practice those slowly. But since these little segments were part of something bigger, they were immediately usable in a more tangible way than an typical exercise would be.

I would look forward to practicing guitar every single day, because I knew I would be one step closer to learning some of my favorite songs.

I also took a single lesson with an amazing YouTube guitarist, and my first question was about what he did to become so good. He said he just learned all of his favorite songs from Petrucci, Govan, Satriani, etc

I still think exercises are great (especially for those who are still beginners) to establish fundamental technique. But if I could do it over again, I would have spent less hours on the exercises, and more time slowly learning difficult songs throughout the years.

Lastly, this is obviously dependent on your tastes too. If someone was into music that didn’t present a challenge to learn, then learning songs could only take them so far. But aiming high by learning songs by the aforementioned artists can be extremely beneficial to all aspects of your playing.

3 Likes
#43

Right, but what you say prior is the key to understanding what “just learning songs” means…

That’s what has just clicked with me. I know it seems so elementary to some people, but I really didn’t get it until I pushed a little here to find out what people really meant by these statements. If you nail your notes the way you nail your words, you must be a good player;)

1 Like
#44

Just playing songs is a developer.

Whatever you practice is what you will improve.

When I was young I only played songs. Now, my eye sight isn’t what it once was, but I became proficient at sight reading. Way better then I am now.

I spent a lot of time improvising and jamming at one point. I got really good at that. Way better then I am now.

I spent the last little while doing lots of technical etudes with a metronome. I am by far the most technical and locked into the groove I’ve ever been. I can look at a piece of musics bpm or figure it out by ear and instantly lock in without the metronome. I’ve NEVER had that ability before.

Prior to that I wrote a little 6 track EP. by the end of that I was the best I’ve ever been at songwriting, I’m super proud of the music I was able to create and the melodies I rewrote lol.

There’s no “wasted time” I used to compete in track and field and martial arts. There were the guys at the top, they always believed in what they were doing. There were the guys in the middle like me who did it because it was fun, made us happy and enjoyed the process. Had some success but not to that same level. Then there were the guys who spent every second second guessing every little thing, reading forum article after forum article, constantly switching their training after two days, rewriting their program against the coaches instruction. Ultimately letting their sneakers or gloves collect dust and switching to something more black and white like video games.

Honestly man, the best thing you can do is pick up your guitar and listen to your heart. Some days nothing makes me happier then sitting and practicing 16th note economy picking with a metronome to see how fast I can go before it all falls apart. Other days I want to turn down the volume knob, throw on some long delay and reverb and vibe out. Other days I want to play a whole hour of iron maiden songs I learnt when I was 14. Some songs I want to learn the solo note for note, others I want to make sure I’m locked into the groove of the track and improvise the solos. Sometimes I make “mistakes” and prefer it to the original version and stick to that. Some licks I can’t play the way the original guy plays it and find my own way. I’ve had lessons with guys and shown them how I play it and they’ve copped that. Others have shown me how they learnt my stuff and it’s way easier and smarter then how I wrote it.

This isn’t a black and white process.

Just pick up your guitar and play, or don’t. Life’s too short.

I don’t understand how we have come to the point that there’s a post about whether playing music is a “developer” or a “waste of time”. Isn’t that the whole point?

2 Likes
#45

Mike, appreciate your insights; you obviously care a lot about music. But read the OP for your answer.

#46

As I said, that darned eye sight :wink:

I’d say in my opinion it worked for me and got me to an intermediate level and most people I’ve had the pleasure of playing with have a large repertoire of songs. I had a roommate in college who was an artist (painter) and he was an incredible musician but he ONLY ever approached the guitar as a landscape creator. It was almost impossible to jam with him because he had a specific vision and was unable to converse. Almost like trying to have a conversation with someone who is sitting on their laptop writing a midterm at the same time. It’s also worked for the students I have taught. I think it’s the best way to foster the passion and enjoyment of playing music.

The other stuff can come when issues arise or when exceptional skills can be elaborated on.

I had a hard time with sweep picking and 16th note tremolo picking I couldn’t learn it just from playing songs, I had to be more specific. I also was able to learn some skills immediately (Gilbert sixes, descending sextuplet runs, down picking rhythm playing) I was able to REALLY improve those with specific targeted practice.

The targeted practice is another intensely elaborate subject.

Is my failure in the technique? Am I tense? am I unable to hear how it is achieved? is it a timing issue? am I distracted by my rugby game tomorrow since my teammate broke his leg right in from of me last week and I don’t want to suffer the same fate? Am I hungry? Did I spend too much time in the paint studio and now I’m high off fumes and unable to focus?

There are answers to every problem that arises in playing but the questions come from playing songs (in my opinion). It also avoids you spending time answering questions that don’t need an answer. (How can I play cleanly on the 15th feet of my dreadnought?) answer- I’ve never had to.

#47

Beautifully put :slight_smile:

20 characters

2 Likes
#48

Lol, the sheer crippling amount of time I wasted years ago with stupid hypothetical situations:

“Like, what if I took this lick, but started on this stroke instead, and played it with an extra note here.”

^ A literal death sentence for developing good technique.

3 Likes
#49

If it makes you feel better, when I was studying guitar as a teenager I thought I’d have to practuce every possible melodic sequence in every possible key in every possible position, starting with any pickstroke, metronome at 40bpm then raise by a few bmps only if you get the thing right 16 times in a row.

It is easy to calculate whether this goal was achievable, and how much spare time I would have had for learning some music :slight_smile:

PS: luckily I didn’t have the discipline to actually do this, so I would often “procrastinate” by noodling some licks without the metronome. Ironically I think that’s where I made progress

5 Likes
#50

Now I feel better lol

2 Likes
#51

For me just playing songs is how I went from not knowing how to play guitar, to knowing how to play guitar. It’s not a time waster. If it gets you playing and learning, and keeps you motivated to keep playing, it’s great.

My practice became more focused as I increased in basic skills. I think more advanced skills require correct technique or you simply can’t do them.

I still spend the last 15 or 20 minutes of every practice playing songs all the way through, working on my repertoire, timing, groove, feel. It’s the most fun part of the practice and my reward for doing all the “hard” work first.

#52
#53

I asked Levi so what should I be practicing about a month ago and he posted this excellent reply on YouTube. For me the thing that has really helped push my playing forward has been learning songs. It helps my ear training, my rhythm playing, my phrasing etc etc. When I started playing 30 years ago I focused solely on technique. I practiced exercises for up to 8 hours a day with a metronome. The problem was that the “music” I made just sounded like running scales really fast or playing fast sequences. Learning songs will make you a better musician. It also gives your technique a purpose.

#54

Interesting discussion.

Looking back I think I went through phases where I was either doing exercises and trying to improve my technique or learning and playing whole songs or parts of songs. When in a band I didn’t have time for exercises but playing regularly with a band still kept my technique progressing somehow.

I remember Vai saying you need to work on your technique with exercises for an amount of hours (he calls it “preparing your vessel” and suggests 10000 hours). Exercises dont necessarily mean scales, but could be an exercise like I’ve been working on lately to improve my pinch harmonics or sweeping or whatever.

I guess for me now I’m back in the “preparing my vessel” phase, because i didnt play for 8 years and I probably spend 40% of the time learning songs or solos to test my progress.

In the end if your technique is as advanced as you want and you can play the songs or styles you want it’s time to leave the exercises behind and “set sail”.

I’m looking at learning songs or writing songs 100% of the time like a reward at the end of my hard slog to prepare my vessel.

It’s a bit like training for a job, doing 60% learning and exercises and 40% practical experience.

The other thing to mention is how much time you spend just “noodling” or letting loose.
That happens to me a lot especially if I’m tired at the end of the day or can’t be bothered to think about exercises or learning new stuff.

For me that can also be a good test of my technique and ability. If I can be tired and grumpy and let loose on the guitar but shred it and get something on the level of EVH playing Eruption then I know my work is paying off. That doesn’t happen very often but amazing things can come out if you’re blowing off steam and putting a lot of energy into it.