Yeah, this is the only way to really approach it. I wouldn’t bother with subdivisions unless it’s some super technical death metal where everything is quantized.
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Maybe depends on the line. John Taylor, @milehighshred posted this today and it sounds killer:
This is faster than I can pick for even one bar let alone 50+ seconds. (Edit: I see this 225 not 250 so I can technically do this for maybe about one bar, but even then only on a good day.) And the timing consistency on this is next-level. I don’t think there is any quantization happening here. Not even sure how you’d do that with video involved. But just as a general point that some lines maybe call for a more metronomic approach and others it may not matter as much.
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Note that @milehighshred was alternating between strings so he cannot miss any notes or he will be in trouble… and his hand seems to be a veritable metronome, there is a lot to love about his mad skills.
Also, I can easily count 1-2-3-4 with the metronome at 225 bpm but of course I can’t count the 16th notes. I am guessing that he might be looking at the clicks as signs to alternate strings?
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Correct 
Just me pickin’ along with the click and trying my best to hit all four strums per click.
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Listening to the click for sure. Still doing my best to feel out 4 strums per click. I can’t count 16ths at that speed either. Can anyone? But, it’s certainly something you can train yourself to feel. Easier said than done!
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I guess yes - in fact in the very same song there is one 4nps riff alternating between some arpeggios, string skipping included. Very difficult to play for me, but on my good day I am able to do it without any major screw-ups.
I usually warm up with a variation of tremolo picked “spiders”:
------------------------------------------------------------------------44441111
------------------------------------------------------------------3333-----------
------2222------44441111-------3333-------------2222-------------------
1111------3333-------------2222-------44441111--------------------------
back and forth along the neck. Helps a lot.
Well, for one, I am trying to do it the “proper” way. I am kind of a perfectionist, and being so attentive to the detail will only help me become faster, better guitarist.
For two, I intend to quad track each guitar part, so at some point this will result in a total of eight guitar tracks playing the same riff.
It’s actually black metal:
I would not call it technical, at all. It does not mean I should be sloppy.
That’s an awesome piece of playing I must say!
Anyways - I guess I figured I just need to play it faster than I originally thought - somehow I knew something is wrong, as there are two parts in the song I was catching myself actually accelerating, and thougth it was incorrect, turns out it was really the other way around.
Now I only need to figure out the rest of the song and actually record it - I still can’t play the intro and I have absolutely no clue what is going on at 1:50.
Once I figure it out, I will make a video.
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Thank you
I get what you’re saying, I’m just pointing out that, playing in an old school death metal band myself, having slowed down and listened to a lot of the faster tremolo picked players, I can say that its not super consistent, perfect 16th notes on the fast tremolos. I’m talking when the tempo reaches well above 200 BPM, something in the 230+ range, I don’t hear consistent perfect 16ths. I’ll hear it dance between 16ths and 8th note triplets at those tempos.
Sure there is plenty of “technical” death metal out there nowadays that does value ultra-precision, but thats not really what I’m talking about here.
I should point out that I’m not referencing tempos up to and including around 200 BPM. With those tempos I do definitely hear consistent 16th notes. Also, I’m referring to the open type of tremolo riffs, similar to the black metal stuff, not the really staccato palm muted riffs.
Take the opening riff to this OSDM classic:
When you slow it down you can hear what I mean. Also you can hear the tremolos don’t match perfectly on either side of the stereo, so I wouldn’t worry about that.
Here’s the thing, I think the dudes in this band, for example, were probably no older than 17 or 18. The mindset was to be as extreme as possible, so they’re just kinda “going for it.” The attitude is way more punk, in a way, and most of the early Scandinavian bands, both death and black, were influenced by a lot of hardcore punk music. To over-think things like subdivisions at super high tempos for this kind of music is going against the vibe and intent of the style.
NOW, granted, I believe as these players got more experienced, they probably developed more proficiency, naturally. I can’t check the playback of the band you are covering, but it looks like Batushka, if I’m correct? I definitely don’t think its worth it to obsess too much, they are fairly raw from what I remember.
I’m not saying its bad to focus on proper subdivisions, obviously, but I think the musical intent needs to be taken into consideration. In the old death and black metal style, the values weren’t placed on the kinds of ultra precision that we tend to value on this forum. I think Fenriz himself would find this discussion on the silly side
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Correct. Just trying to put that new 8 string of mine to a good use.
And yeah, you may actually be right that I am obsessing too much over it, to the point that I am even trying to recreate the guitar tone.
Now, I tried several times, and looks like I am able to sort of play it, maybe not perfectly, but just fine to try and cover it finally.
Just wondering, do you “pulse” on the beat when you trem pick? Thats pretty much the only thing I focus on when I tremolo pick very high speeds. So I’m not focused on subdivisions but I try to “feel” the beat in my right hand, so to speak. I guess its the same thing as accenting on the downbeat, but I’m focused less on the precise subdivisions and more on making sure I can feel the pulse of the drums. Otherwise, its tough to find the drummer’s pocket, especially if you’re navigating blast beats or high tempo Slayer beats.
Yes, sometimes even to the point of exagerration. It is barely audible though, high gain acts as a compressor so it flattens dynamics. Especially when using digital amp sims.
Tried to record it, something went very badly - project tempo changed somehow, rythm guitar went out of sync, but at least I got used to beats 2, 3 and 4 and I could synchronise with them better.
I will try again tomorrow.
Now I remember since @BlackInMind brought up the Dismember song. You already posted a thread like this months ago, we (@BlackInMind and myself) gave you the exact same advice from this thread and you’re still obsessing over this… The answer isn’t changing…
I’m aware the band you’ve mentioned is not technical, and that they are black metal. That’s precisely why I said what I said. Since this is a not a technical band, you should try to match the sonic quality of the piece and nothing more. 99% of the time for this style of music you’re trying to tremolo as fast as you can without regard for subdivisions - “unmetered” tremolo.
This OCD sort of thing does come out a lot on this forum, whether it’s with regard to motion mechanics, tone, whatever. It’s good to a certain point to care a lot about those things because they do matter, but occasionally a person goes too far into it and it seems like you’re already there. Just saying man. It’s not productive to be this fixated, and all of the clips you’ve posted either recently or months ago sound well within the ballpark. I don’t know what hours more of focus on this will do for you, but the results will likely be unnoticeable.
I totally forgot I posted this before…
Sorry about that. I must really be obsessed.
Edit:
Looking at the previous topic though, the original question was slightly different:
Original topic was dealing with an issue of increasing speed for 4nps tremolo picked pattern.
I created this topic because I was curious about others’ approach to keeping time, an “internal metronome” if you will.
Circumstances are similar, but while the first one is purely about speed, this one is more about accuracy and feel of time.
Seems both got slightly side-tracked in a similar direction.
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Another possible confound is that in my opinion metal doesn’t really use even 16ths, there’s a certain “feel” that I guess is a bit similar to swing.
I’m going to have a go at explaining this in text but it probably isn’t going to work.
Let’s use the intro of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfpWDOzE5nM
So you’ve got your quarter note “stab” and then your fill in of sixteenths.
In my opinion rather than these being metrically exact the stab is dragged slightly behind the beat and then the sixteenths are maybe a touch faster to make up for it.
We’re talking micro amounts but it lends a certain “gravity” to the first note of the bar and sort of sucks you in.
Obviously at faster tempos the effect will be almost imperceptible but the effect on trying to actually play the stuff is still there.
In a black metal context you get a sort of “fluttering” feel by slight increases of the speed and volume of picking to emphasise certain parts of the riff even though you might just notate it as even tremolo picking.
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That makes sense.
Also, it could be that higher tones are perceived as faster, while they’re really not?
In any case, I feel like I’ve found the answer already.
Thanks to all of you guys, you are great.
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If I wanted to be less long-winded I guess I could have just said “sometimes you emphasise a note by giving it more volume, and sometimes you emphasise a note by giving it slightly more than its correct allowance of time”.
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As a fellow black metal enthusiast who is working on tremolo picking, I’d recommend alternating between slow and fast practice like this:
The slow parts help you become aware of each pickstroke, while the occasional bursts of speed help you apply the fourth pickstroke to the riff. Start with one note, and later start using a part of the riff (e.g. one or two bars).
That’s how I’m building speed and accuracy for playing my band’s riffs: I take one bar of the riff and loop it, while throwing in a burst at the end of every second repetition to get a feel for the tempo.
Off topic, but ironic that right after Petrucci says “make sure you’re not doing anything different” he clearly uses a different motion mechanic fast than he does slow (slow looks like rotation, fast looks like wrist deviation + elbow). Thanks, CtC, I feel like I’m wearing the glasses in “They Live” sometimes. 
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Hahahahahaha 
Yeah, the general consensus on CtC concerning Petrucci is that, as far as technique is concerned, he was at his peak in the 90s - all wrist. He’s been using a lot of elbow for the fast stuff for the past 20 years or so.
Good catch, the motion is indeed changing. But if by rotation you mean forearm rotation, this looks like all wrist here — he’s just switching from double escape wrist to single escape wrist. You’re right that there might be some elbow component in the faster segments, but it doesn’t look like the elbow-only thing that people have noticed him doing in recent years. At least not for the few seconds I watched.
It’s also worth noting that even though John did the fast alternate arpeggio thing on Rock Discipline, the slower speed “demonstration” motion he’s doing here doesn’t look like that. It looks bouncier, and similar to what we sometimes see in Technique Critique when players get stuck and complain of speed limit and arm tension. Which is fine — great players don’t often do the high-speed aerodynamic version of a thing when playing more slowly. It would be cool to get a closer look at his faster double escape form if he still does it.