Learning at Warp Three Speed

Masters in Mechanics
#6

This is exactly what i am working on forba few months now.

Most of the faster stuff i now am able play with the same motion when playing slow.
My experience is that most comes down to how big or small the motion is.

When playing fast the motions of course are very small.
Most of us willl make much bigger motions when playing slow, and that is where the string hopping comes in.

I am making the motions as small as possible when playing slow, and when i speed up there is no noticable difference anymore.
The one note per string stuff is still not the same but most of the other lines feel pretty much the same now.

However, i am still working on getting the same dynamics.
I tend to hit the strings harder when playing fast, which is difficult to do playing slow with very small motions.

#7

Great question! You are pointing out that there is a limit to motor resolution. What you are describing here is what most people do when playing slowly. You can see it in the Magnet footage in the lesson.

At slow speeds, it is difficult to move continuously across the whole distance while maintaining constant speed, then turn around instantly, then do it again. Without going into the technical details, it’s just too hard to maintain that level of fine control over a large distance over a lot of time.

Stringhopping is easier because you cover the large distance quickly, then wait around at the end of the pickstroke. Then you do it again in the reverse direction. There’s less fine control because the motion itself is over and done quickly.

Similarly, if you notice, when I slow down the Gypsy technique, it’s easy to do. Because the rest stroke just stops, and then you wait around. You don’t have to struggle to create continuous slow-speed motion across a large distance over a lot of time.

So for very slow playing, rest strokes and stringhopping solve the same problem: you don’t need a million control pulses over lots of time, or lots of muscle co-contraction, like the computer mouse analogy I make in the lesson. In both cases, you get the kind of “fast then stop” motion path you are describing.

By comparison, fast playing looks exactly like the continuous speed scenario you describe: continuous motion, turn around, continuous motion, etc. This type of motion is difficult to simulate at slow speed, and also not necessary.

3 Likes
#8

I find myself wondering if this is why it seems much more difficult to learn DBX motions for 1NPS string playing; it’s quite easy (FCVO “easy”) to achieve a “realistic” tremolo at almost any speed by leveraging rest strokes, but it’s much more difficult to do that when you’ve got nothing to rest on.

2 Likes
#9

I think so. Because most people try to learn things “slow”, and without rest strokes, the only way to slow down DBX without becoming laborious is stringhopping. This is fundamentally a different skill. So the slow reps don’t do anything.

The only thing I’d point out is that slow speed rest strokes aren’t really the same as fast playing either. I tried to make that clear in the lesson when I slowed down the Gypsy technique. The two motions are both “USX”, but they don’t look or feel that similar.

We actually get a lot of people in Technique Critique who can mimic slow USX, but when they speed up it just becomes a more trapped or DSX wrist motion. Normally, if you try this with Gypsy posture, this produces garage spikes where you can’t get through the string and you have to stop. This is a natural feedback loop so you know you’re “doing it wrong”. It enhances the trial and error. People keep experimenting until they find the right pickslant / motion combination that allows them to get through the string while maintaining a USX path.

But the problem is that pick attack is super complicated, and there is tons of variation in finger and hand shape. Some people can do a Gypsy posture, and they appear to have a downward pickslant – at least minimally – but still slice through the string somewhat when they make a DSX or trapped motion. They don’t get the garage spikes. So there is nothing that tells them they are doing it wrong. Then they try to play a typical “evens” lick with string changes, and the mistakes show up.

It’s tricky! It’s common enough that we have started calling this “failure to USX”.

5 Likes
#10

@Troy In the video you mention that you need to be practicing above the “warp 3” tempo for someone new to a technique to get the feel for it.

If someone is already comfortable with a technique (like they already have a good USX motion that goes fast) is there still a “ballpark” speed you’d recommend when working out new lines or licks, or should one work at the edge of their ability?

Like lets say, for example, I’m trying to get the Jet to Jet ping pong sixes down, and the performance tempo is 130ish. Does it make more sense to try to work it as close to 130 (or faster) as possible, or is there merit to working at it at 100 or 120 bpm etc. Does the slower (but still past warp 3) easier tempo do anything, or is it wasted time if the goal is 130?

I’ve been under the impression that you get the most gains from practicing at the edge of your ability, but this video made me think if there is also merit to practicing something in your comfort zone as well. Again, my question is for someone who’s already got their motion down (no longer a beginner at a technique) and is just trying to now work on different licks.

2 Likes
#11

@Troy ,

Another point i would like to make is muscle tension.
There is a certain amount of tension in the muscles when you play very fast. When playing slow you do not need that tension, and therefore tje motions wil become bigger and feel different.
Keeping a certain amount of tension when playing slow should result in a much more similair motions when playing fast.

I do not now if it is a good thing to do, since you do not need that tension when playing slow, but i am expirimenting with this and will fnd out.

What do you think?

#12

Exactly! There is a certain amount of co-contraction involved in fast playing, where the downstroke muscles never shut off when the upstroke is playing, and vice versa. At very fast speeds, there probably isn’t even enough time to completely shut off.

No, I don’t think it’s a good idea to try to simulate this when playing slowly. This is the computer mouse example I described in the lesson. It just causes fatigue for no reason. Making a more “easy” motion that does not have co-contraction is how slow playing works. It is simply a different technique. There is no reason to try to make it similar to fast technique. It is already optimized for slow speed playing.

5 Likes
#13

Yeah, you are right.
After trying to play slow with some muscle tension for a few days i also don’t think this is of any help.

#14

I try not to think in generalities. What is the problem you are trying to solve? That determines the solution. If there is no problem, then there is no reason to change anything you are doing!

4 Likes
#15

I know that CtC is famously fixated on the right hand :slight_smile: but I wonder if the same concept applies somehow to the left hand. i.e. if the movements at speed differ from the movements when slow practicing. It might be worth investigating…

1 Like
#16

after fiddling about trying to go to “warp 3” with some stuff that I’ve never really had under control (sort of turns out my “double escape” was “fast string hopping”) I’m beginning to develop the following hypothesis:

Trying to play with incorrect/inefficient picking techniques uses up mental bandwidth in a way that inhibits correct fretting technique

please feel free to experiment

1 Like
#17

I believe you’re looking for a few of @Tom_Gilroy 's threads. :+1:

1 Like
#18

Does Tom have an answer to that question? Do fretting mechanics change at speed vs slow? I’m familiar with his concepts like the hand at rest, efficient grip, digital cycles, etc. I just haven’t found an answer to @stormymondays ’ question, which is a shame since it’s a good one. How exactly do you work out fretting inefficiencies to establish a better baseline form?

#19

Well, I don’t want to speak for Tom… but my understanding with a lot of his efficient digital cycles thinking is that physiologically some movements and some combinations of fingers are just easier to execute than others. It follows then that the more efficient movements can be done faster than the less efficient ones, and you hit your “speed limits” at the physiologically inefficient ones at much lower speeds than themore efficient ones. And, what I think is analagous here, is at speeds below those “speed limits,” finger choice doesn’t matter so much because you’re not brushing up against physical limitations, but above them it starts to.

It’s not necessarily that a slower tempo tends to use an inefficient motion that changes to a more efficient one as you speed up, exactly, so much as if you start with the less efficient motion, you’re not going to be able to get very far slowly working it up to speed with a metronome.

I remember when he first started talking about this stuff I was firmly in the “dude’s crazy, the fretting hand just figures itself out” camp. I very quickly realized I was wrong once he started explaining why certain fretting motions and certain finger choices were more efficient than others, and I’ve tried to implement some of his observations in my playing, or at least let them inform how I go about things.

2 Likes
#20

There are very significant differences between fretting technique for slow and fast playing.

This is a deep topic, and I can’t explain everything here in this comment, but I’ll try to outline the big picture here.

When fretting slowly, it’s possible to control subtle movements of the individual fingers in ways that are not possible at speed. This level of control is achieved through careful balancing of opposing muscle groups. In single-note playing, these movements are often used for fretting hand string tracking and position tracking. In chordal playing, these movements are absolutely ubiquitous; every chord is essentially a contortion of the fretting hand.

However, fingers are not independent in any sense. The movement of any finger affects the movement of all others (to varying degrees). The type of control mentioned above requires constant activation of muscles that are common to all fingers. In particular, flexor digitorum profundus (FDP) and extensor digitorum communis (EDC). These muscles are in the forearm and are significantly stronger than the intrinsic muscles of the hand. The intrinsic muscles of the hand act against the communal muscles to achieve fine control at low speeds.

We simply can’t achieve this level of fine control when we play faster. The constant activation of FDP and EDC interferes with the smaller muscles. The fretting hand becomes rigid and the muscles fatigue quickly.

We can’t fix the problem by focusing on “finger independence” at slower speeds, because fingers are not independent and can not be trained to become independent. Trying to focus on “economy of motion” at slower speeds doesn’t work either, this just increases the level of cocontraction.

More than that, when playing slowly, it is possible (and often necessary) to fret with gradual pressure in a way that’s not possible at higher speed. At higher speed, fretting forces must be generated much more suddenly. Imagine the difference between “pressing” the string and “striking” the string.

When we play at speed, we have limited ability to “aim” the fingers individually. The fingers must closely follow their natural arc of motion (like a reflexive grasp). We can not “aim” the fingers, so we must “aim” the hand.

As an analogy, think of a WW2 fighter plane. The machine guns were fixed, so the pilots couldn’t aim the guns. Instead, they aimed the plane through aerial maneuvers.

The “aerial maneuvers” of the fretting hand are often not necessary when playing slowly. However, these maneuvers are absolutely essential in fast playing, so the fretting hand must be maneuverable.

The “maneuvers” required are characteristic to each pattern or lick. They are inherently rhythmic, connecting the fretting hand to the internal clock. This is critical to chunking and synchronisation.

Practicing too slowly allows for the type of fine finger control mentioned previously, and so does not reliably result in the emergence of these maneuvers. Practicing in a fashion that is non-representative of fast playing can actually impede their development.

Unfortunately, none of this is actionable until we deal with some more foundational issues. We have to accept the natural interdependence of our fingers – some fingerings are just inherently inefficient. We also have to address the reuse problem and develop strategies to minimize the frequencies of our movements. The efficient digital cycles are the generic “optimum,” but we can also utilize situational movements (the rock, the roll and the reveal) while fretting.

When all of this is understood, we can at least start with things that we can reasonably expect to be fast. If we can habituate fretting postures which are similar to the hand at rest, which naturally align our muscles to the task and which are maneuverable, then we can actually practice those things in a manner that promotes the emergence of the appropriate movement patterns.

9 Likes
#21

Tom thanks for the explanation. Would you be able to give me an actionable example so i can better understand? for example i am trying to learn sweeping, Sextuplets at 125 BPM. Ignoring the right hand part. What would be the correct learning process for the left hand?

1 Like
#22

Thanks for chiming in, Tom. That actually makes a lot of sense

1 Like
#23

Dean Lamb often mentions doing exactly this for sweep picking and I believe for alternate picking. He says it’s essential to get better timing at ultra fast speeds.

#24

I think that’s what for example Jon Bjork calls “transition speed”, i.e. trying to make the movement itself still as fast as possible but then wait in between to match the tempo. So essentially in order to not fall back to a slower movement alltogether even though the tempo is slower.

#25

No problem!

I’m glad to help.

I don’t mean to be obtuse or to deflect, but I think this would be quite difficult to do exclusively through text. As I said above, this is a deep topic. There are a lot of prerequisite concepts to understand the “why” behind everything, and different examples are required to demonstrate different concepts clearly.

We have to begin with a fretting posture based on the resting position of the hand which is both maneuverable and naturally aligns the muscles to task. There is no universal fretting posture, there are different archetypes each with their own strengths and weaknesses, so we need some idea of which posture or postures will be suitable.

That much in itself is a huge topic (at least a few hours of instruction), but assuming we have that, we need to solve for fretting sequence which avoids bad cases, which minimizes movement reuse frequency and which facilitates fretting hand flow (that is, the fingers used must result in the hand moving in the intended directions).

Then, we need to start working the fretting sequence on the guitar. With the understanding that we will not be able to achieve the type of fine control that was described in my previous comment at speed, our goal is to find the gross “maneuver” of the fretting hand which will “aim” the fingers. With the understanding that movements will inevitably become smaller and less powerful at higher frequency, it’s actually better to start with large, powerful movements which feel easy.

See my comment about Fitt’s law and forced oscillators here:

More than that, we need the gross maneuver of the fretting hand to be rhythmically regular and clearly perceptible. We need to be able to feel the pulse in the gross movement of the fretting arm and hand, not just the fretting of the individual fingers. In order to synchronize with the picking hand, we need to ensure that the gross movements of the picking and fretting hands and arms have compatible movement phase. If we can ensure this, synchronization is immediate, automatic and stable.

Then, we train for speed as I’ve outlined in my other comments.

Most sweep fingering have been sufficiently well “vetted” at this stage, so assuming that you have the appropriate fretting postures and the understanding the situational movements that are used to reduce movement frequency (the rock, the roll and the reveal), you can get started in applying the fretting sequence and trying to find the gross maneuver as described above. There are some optimizations I could suggest for specific shapes, but the usual fingerings for most of the standard 1 and 2 octave major and minor shapes are reasonably good.

Never ignore the picking hand.

It’s fine to do some repetitions without the picking hand to allow you to focus on feeling the rhythm of the gross maneuver of the fretting hand, but it’s critical to understand what the picking hand will be doing and relate them to eachother. If we focus on playing everything for the fretting hand with hammers or pull-offs, we’ll force a sequence of fretting actions which is not representative of the version which incorporates picking.

More than that, we need the movement phases of the picking and fretting hands to be compatible to ensure synchronization. Starting with each hand separately and trying to combine them can result in building two one-handed coordinations which are not rhythmically compatible and which cannot be synchronized. Trying to match individual pick strokes to individual fretting actions will not produce stable synchronization if the gross rhythmic movements of the hands are not in phase.

I’m quite busy this weekend and I really don’t have time to write up a complete post that goes into all of this in more depth. I should have some time on Monday and I might be able to make a video discussing some of these ideas and provide an example.

5 Likes