thanks Joe! i broke the issue down and its weird; if i just play open strings, i can do DBX pretty well. but once i start fretting, it becomes a strummy mess!
ugh who knows
I think it probably boils down to we need to be analyzing the music far more than just physical technique to get to the crux of what is truly going on.
I don’t agree fully agree with Mr. Baragwanath as it being a curse because guitar is a very weird animal as is the rest stroke in general which helps to learn the articulation of lines. even chopin had a system of utilizing the strong fingers during phrasing. so highly accurate blueprint tablature for specific speed trick phrasing is definitely something that is needed in the beginning as you are learning the chosen picking system you are learning especially if you aren’t apart of these hidden communities teaching it to one another.
however i can see his point on things. at some point you have to ditch the technique blueprint, and try to have a deeper more profound aural understanding of what is going on.
Sounds like a great find. To me, this isn’t weird at all since it’s a new motion. You might have a handle on it, but maybe it’s still new enough that introducing fretting is sort of “pulling” the motion back to your default motion. It’s like trying to brush your teeth while you comb your hair.
Back when I was being stubborn (well, I still am stubborn) and rebelling against my default fast motion, I really wanted to learn a USX motion. Because, ya know…Eric Johnson. Anyway, after a decent amount of searching and practice I could get the gypsy-ish motion going really fast for a tremolo. The minute I introduced some fretting that motion would go right back to what I’d always known, some wrist (or wrist + elbow) DSX. To be honest, I still need to warm that motion up and and concentrate really hard to get it to “stay”. Being aware of it helped. I’d devise little licks or etudes or exercises to help transition from a tremolo to the more “synced” fretted patterns.
Not sure what the equivalent would be for DBX since “tremolo” doesn’t really work (hard to tell if you’re doing the motion properly when it’s just on one string). Maybe a pattern where the fretting is doing something but not a ton, that way you can really concentrate on getting used to what DBX feels like. I’ve been on and off working on Tumeni Notes and one of the immediate problems I identified is that the fretting is pretty tough. So I made this little etude that has the same picking, but much easier fretting (and no muting at all, just let ring on a clean channel or acoustic) and that way I can make sure the picking is as efficient as it should be.
A few swipes but no big deal because the speed is getting closer to the “real thing’s” tempo and I think the fretting hand challenges were holding me back, allowing the right hand to become a little lazy and do a motion that while still not string hopping, wasn’t maximally efficient.
I guess the disclaimer on any of that advice is that we’re assuming your assessment is correct about the motion being solid when you remove any fretting. If you want to upload a clip of that, it could help confirm. So far I’ve learned USX, DSX (which I could always do) and DBX. USX took longer but my approach was not as smart as the way I learned DBX. I’d consider the latter to be the CtC-approved “happy path”. That said, I can see why DBX gives plenty of people a fit, just because if you’ve never done that motion before, it’s really hard to “find” it because the it feels so much different than the single escape playing. At least for me! The only thing I think it has in common with the single escape motions is the general feeling of “easy-ness” when it’s done correctly.
I don’t know what you are feeling internally when you are trying to play this specific set of phrases in combination. But what I seem to get a sense of is that you are having possibly a problem finding a reference point between the gypsy jazz flex wrist strumming, and the single line phrasing that seems to have a very different picking setup form. It seems you are mentally trying pretty precisely to focus on keeping this transition smooth, and fast almost like you are having problem with the transition point of reference perhaps. Then it is causing you to trip up on that descending single line phrase as you are preparing your mind for this transition right hand setup thats going to happen.
thanks! what i’m feeling internally is a strummy trappy mess when going from downward escape on one string to upward escape on the string above it (above it in pitch, that is).
i realized if i pronate my forearm a little more when doing the DSX, it helps.
i’m trying to find more material on forearm movement when doing DBX but having trouble finding materials. Troy looks like he definitely pronates the thumb side of his wrist/hus forearm a little more when going to DSX (like in his Gilbert 7s example) and then supinates the same a little when switching to USX.
I know for DBX (or even mixed escape) Troy does not advise that we flip flop between 2 postures. You need to find a general posture that allows both escapes (paired with the proper motion of course, since the posture isn’t really the secret sauce). The majority of the motion should come from the wrist, the forearm might be used a little in specific cases (string skips come to mind). Broadly speaking, wrist based DBX is going to look and feel like the wrist just moving back and forth.
There should be a good deal of info on DBX in the Primer.
Lots of links here (not all apply to you) but the Reverse Dart Thrower section should be relevant:
What you can try is instead of strumming with an upstroke escape approach you can turn your wrist to make the pick have an opposite pick slant so when you strum it’s at an angle that puts the pick at more of a downstroke escape. And flip flop the strumming, Moreno Winterstein sort of does this kind of thing. It is a very subtle adjustment that doesn’t really alter the wrist setup, it is basically just turning the wrist down just slightly, also very hard to spot in Moreno’s playing, but it might help you locate a point of reference between the two phrases.
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thanks Joe! okay i think i might be getting somewhere. but my question is now:
i don’t understand how andy wood and these other players aren’t moving their forearm at all when doing dbx. when doing ulnar deviation and some extension to the right side of the clock face (in the 902 motion), how can you NOT move your forearm? anatomically, that seems impossible. by extending my wrist, my forearm pronates.
That is highly debated by me and @WhammyStarScream lol! I try to just parrot Troy and he says it’s all wrist for the “core” motion. I think it might get sort of academic and the important thing is to not worry so much about anything other than playing fast and relaxed. If the forearm moves some, fine. I definitely would not advise trying to keep it from moving. That could lead to unwanted tension
Just from my own experience, the wrist feels like the driver of the motion. When I do skips I start to see the forearm turn some. maybe it is always moving a little, but I dunno. That’s where we’d need Troy to do the lab thing with someone and check muscle activity. But again, for us trying to just “do” the motion it probably doesn’t matter what’s really happening.
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amazing! okay, i’m gonna try this out for a bit and then report back. thanks all!!
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Update! I found that the David Grier DBX style was much more natural given the way my forearm is pronated when going from the strumming part of the riff to the picking part. it was like an instant, significant improvement.
originally, it seems that i was trying to do a 902 motion but my forearm was more pronated than i thought it was. when going into a more supinated position, the 902 motion worked a lot better.
i’ll upload vids to show my progress later next week. want to drill this a bit more
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Nice! That was the first one I learned too. The only reason I ditched it is because I really like playing the more “lush” 1nps chords and that pronation would dampen the strings that I wanted to ring out. For more “non chord” type playing like you are doing it won’t matter at all. Plus, I found once I could do just one of these wrist based DBX forms the others fell into place pretty naturally. Glad to hear you’re making progress.
Yes! i agree.
questions based on my findings so far:
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i find that the part of the lick where i have to play two NPS on the b string for the first time (the part where you bend the 3rd fret B and then hit an open B), DBX is the easiest way to do that. it feels most natural when going to the high E string again. however isn’t DBX only for 1 NPS? i thought if its 2+ NPS, i need to employ USX or DSX (depending on where i am in the picking pattern)?
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i also find that, where i have to play 2NPS on the B string the second time around, that USX feels really natural. but isn’t that against “the Code” as my arm is pronated and you cant/shouldn’t do 2 NPS via USX if you’re pronated?
Doesn’t have to be only for 1 nps. If there are enough situations in a lick where you can’t really do a “primary escape” with a little helper motion, DBX is a good candidate. You mentioned Grier - this is what he most likely does, same with Molly Tuttle who has a very similar mechanic to Grier. They just make “all” their strokes escape and that way they don’t have to deal with figuring out where to change escapes
Gotta cite Shawn Lane here. He was pronated yet got USX. You’re actually already doing half of this if you’re playing with the Grier/Tuttle DBX (footage will confirm). In that style the upstrokes only escape on the “dart thrower” axis of motion. The down strokes escape by just going towards “3 o’clock” and since the hand is tilted (pronated) this works out fine. The upstroke though, it traces the path your wrist would do if it was preparing to throw a dart. It’s the total inverse of the 9 0 2 concept.
That second point I don’t think even matters for your purposes. If you’re set on picking this lick entirely alternate, a DBX motion is a great way to do that. Navigating the different times where you need USX here and DSX there and trying to force that to happen all over the place might be too much thinking. Not saying there aren’t players out there who do that, but I think DBX is a more simple solution, provided you can actually make a DBX motion.
i dunno if this will be of much help, but it looks like i need to toss this hal leonard tab book of mine in the dumpster as i just watched SRV play this live with no suprise that the tab book is very inaccurate. in the first two live videos i see him playing this intro the riff has slides not bends.
i am sorry if anyone here disagrees with my opinions on tablature, but a tablature book of a specific band or song should be as accurate to the original player as possible. if the transcriber has a different picking approach shouldn’t matter, he should adjust accordingly and transcribe the material as accurate to the original player as possible. this isn’t a transcription of the transcriber, it is a transcription of the original player’s composition. at least give some disclaimer on the cover, this is why tablature is such garbage. the technique blueprint of these phrases are just flat out wrong.
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I think he bends on the recording and slides live, Paul Davids had a video where he broke the lick down. Regardless the slides are way cooler and flashier 
I’ve always played it with slides but I just discovered the bend version can sound much cleaner, and it’s also easier to make the riff movable, sounds killer an octave up. Also I like that the fretting hand never moves it’s position. We all like different things 
I think the bends are harder, I’m playing on 10s or 11s but I’m on a scalloped neck, doesn’t help I’m building my calluses after a dismally long period of not playing at all. The two clips in my post are literally the first things I played in weeks, baring two sessions it’s been more than half a year, never again.
I’ve played with it slides, bends, chicken pickin’, precise pickin’, sloppy pickin’, extra HO/PO, one of those or many of those during a single run through. It just a fun as hell lick to play in so many different ways.
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That’s hilarious, and true. I’d love to hear you play man, I think you’ve been around the block a couple of times, always a pleasure to learn and appreciate a seasoned player.
update! see “scuttle pronated fast” and the corresponding slo-mo video here: User Homepage – Cracking the Code
it’s not perfect but it feels a lot smoother when i do DBX from a pronated arm position. looking at the slo mo version, it looks like i’m not nailing the escape on the downstroke all the time, particularly when i need to play two notes on a string, but it’s definitely a lot better than before (in my opinion).
thoughts on how to further improve, or just thoughts generally?