Master of Puppets - USX or DSX?

[joebegly]

@jptk

The different sides of the pick hitting the string creates an alternating change in timbre

I notice this for sure, but there is a way you can get just the right angle where both strokes sound identical, on single notes, that is (this may be at odds with other factors though). I have pretty sensitive ears for this from my classical playing as we strive really hard to ensure each finger makes the exact same tone. So I am confident I am really hearing the difference, just like I’m pretty confident when I’ve attempted to get the tone consistent on up/down strokes, I’m really accomplishing that.

@kgk

how does the string “know” if it is being hit on the way down, or the way up?

I’ve also got a lot of experience in metal playing, and I was definitely of the opinion that down strokes should be used whenever possible, just like Hetfield. I’d particularly notice differences if the rhythm part had some power chords (which almost always happens at some point in the phrase in that genre). Even if the tempo is fast, when more than one note is present in the part, upstroked chords will sound brighter since the higher note sounds first.

@kgk

is it that the all-downstroke approach hits much harder than usual and really smashes the string, creating a different sound?

I think this is definitely part of it. Also, if rest strokes are being used, they have a more full sound by default too.

[Troy]

@jptk

The string doesn’t know, but your pick does! It’s the difference in timbre between a downstroke and upstroke. The different sides of the pick hitting the string creates an alternating change in timbre.

Anecdotally, I’ve noticed the players who do stringhopping can get a similar machine-gun like sound on every pickstroke, even though technically stringhopping is alternate picking — just not efficient alternate picking. So I think the idea that downstrokes and upstrokes have to sound different just because the pick is moving in different directions isn’t true. The machine gun is coming from some other aspect, like the similarity of the motion path or something.

@kgk

You must be right, but how does the string “know” if it is being hit on the way down, or the way up?

It won’t, but it might know if it’s being hit with a trapped motion or an escaped motion. There is apparently some physics behind the idea of a trapped pickstroke having more bass response. I’m not familiar with why specifically. But you can sort of hear this on an acoustic guitar if you do a pronounced trapped pickstroke that rests. Note that whether it’s an upstroke or downstroke doesn’t matter. What matters is that the pick moves toward the guitar body and plays the string.

To my ears the effect is subtle and not what Hetfield is talking about when he talks about all downstrokes sounding more aggressive on a high gain amp with muting. I think he’s talking about the similarity of the pick attack, which, again, can be achieved with alternate picking if you make very similar motions in both directions, as stringhoppers often do.

[jptk]

@joebegly

I notice this for sure, but there is a way you can get just the right angle where both strokes sound identical, on single notes, that is (this may be at odds with other factors though).

@Troy

Anecdotally, I’ve noticed the players who do stringhopping can get a similar machine-gun like sound on every pickstroke, even though technically stringhopping is alternate picking — just not efficient alternate picking. So I think the idea that downstrokes and upstrokes have to sound different just because the pick is moving in different directions isn’t true.

These are good points. I can actually get a pretty similar sound if I do an exaggerated up and down Stringhopping motion. So it’s something in how the notes are being played and not whether it’s an up or downstroke then. Specifically what… I’m not sure

[bradejensen]

@Troy

It won’t, but it might know if it’s being hit with a trapped motion or an escaped motion. There is apparently some physics behind the idea of a trapped pickstroke having more bass response. I’m not familiar with why specifically. But you can sort of hear this on an acoustic guitar if you do a pronounced trapped pickstroke that rests. Note that whether it’s an upstroke or downstroke doesn’t matter. What matters is that the pick moves toward the guitar body and plays the string.

Do you think it has anything to do with having a free floating wrist and not planting the wrist with the entire arm on the body that might cause an escape path for the sound vibrations? This is something I only recently considered.

[Moje]

Truthfully I think all-downstrokes are phenomenally overrated just because they’re difficult if you don’t happen across the most efficient way of doing them. Just as with heavy strings it must sound better if it’s more difficult, right? IMO downstrokes became popular in the first place because they make things simpler, not because they sound better. This first became apparent to me watching a King’s X vid; the amazing Ty Tabor used alternate picking for the riff, and like everyone else, I never noticed.

[Pepepicks66]

@Moje

Truthfully I think all-downstrokes are phenomenally overrated

I would disagree, as would most metal players I think. Actually, gypsy jazz is another genre that heavily emphasizes the use of downstrokes because of the noticeable difference in attack.

@Moje

King’s X vid; the amazing Ty Tabor

Just wanted to say I love King’s X and Ty!

[bradejensen]

@Pepepicks66

I would disagree, as would most metal players I think. Actually, gypsy jazz is another genre that heavily emphasizes the use of downstrokes because of the noticeable difference in attack.

They do double downs sure, but some don’t. Most of the newer players are choosing upstroke escape. But I would be willing to bet when they are bedroom playing, honing technique, they are doing it, it’s probably just not there to utilize when playing live. There is one ascended diminished 2 note per string phrase I do double down with a sweep string change as it just feels nice under my hands. Could I do it with alternate picking sure, I just like to play it double down. Is one harder than the other? No. Is one faster than the other I am sure if I really try to play it as fast as possible alternate picking would win, maybe not though, but to my hands I could probably flow it better with double downs. And it could really depend on how much endurance you have in the tank if you are mid solo, you might choose to alternate pick the phrase to conserve power for a later phrase.

[Pepepicks66]

@bradejensen

it’s probably just not there to utilize when playing live.

If that’s the case, why would that be? To keep up the image of tradition, or because there’s a tangible difference in attack?

Back in the realm of metal (which I’m more comfortable with), the argument against downstrokes is also pretty much moot when you consider playing fast, successive chords comprised of two adjacent strings, which many modern metal players use. That just sounds strange alternate picked, not to mention awkward.

[bradejensen]

@Pepepicks66

If that’s the case, why would that be? To keep up the image of tradition, or because there’s a tangible difference in attack?

You would probably be correct. They just feel different is all I could say, I only can really speed through ascended phrasing that mainly stays on one string, the half rest strokes I am still quite slow at currently. I am much faster at it than in the beginning, but my half rest stroke, beyond the same string or just one, has kind of plateaued currently, the phrases that require 2,3, or 4 in a row I mean specifically spread across, 2,3 and 4 strings.

[kgk]

I wish to thank everybody for their explanations, they helped me greatly!

In my mind, USX and DSX are effectively the same, where one stroke goes towards the guitar, and then one stroke goes away. I can totally see how the incoming stroke could be be much faster/hotter and can therefore sound different than the outgoing stroke, as the distance for the outgoing stroke to accelerate is quite small (particularly with edge picking). In short, I think that unless people are careful to hide the difference between an inbound and outbound stroke (as I attempt), a good listener will be able to differentiate them. Troy’s comments here were generally fascinating, particularly when he suggested that the outbound stroke might possibly have more bass for physics reasons; so far, I can’t think of any such reason, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist!

But I think the take-away for me was that the high-speed all-downstroke technique is an elliptical shape, and that makes a lot of sense.

[Pepepicks66]

@kgk

But I think the take-away for me was that the high-speed all-downstroke technique is an elliptical shape, and that makes a lot of sense.

I think it is. I haven’t seen other fast downstroke magnet views, but here’s one I posted:

damage inc magnet view 04DEC22

[bradejensen]

@kgk

But I think the take-away for me was that the high-speed all-downstroke technique is an elliptical shape, and that makes a lot of sense.

Christiaan van Hemert also says it is like a circle. You are welcome to watch the entire video, it is basically a complete package of USX free floating wrist rotation rest stroke picking technique for free.

Q&A with Christiaan - Episode 2 - Basic RH Picking Technique

[kgk]

@bradejensen

You are welcome to watch the entire video, it is basically a complete package of USX free floating wrist rotation rest stroke picking technique for free.

Wow, he is an excellent teacher, I watched the whole thing!