My long-standing problems with tremolo picking

Technique Critique
#12

I could record something I guess, but I’m trying to keep this post on topic so it doesn’t get too convoluted. I still spend time developing it, but as I said, it’s not useful in general.

In particular, since I want to play metal, I need a technique that allows me to use palm muting, and that technique doesn’t work at all with palm muting so that’s why I’m trying to find another technique that does. This process of focusing on a palm muting oriented technique started about 3 years ago, but since that wasn’t working I thought I should give up and focus on a clean USX motion first (hence the technique in my videos).

#13

I guess my confusion is that it sounds like I have a similar technique to the other style you’re referring to, and I also focus on lots of palm muting. I think when I do that, I just shift the emphasis from pushing the fleshy part of the base of my thumb on the strings, to the edge of my palm on the pinky since.

#14

Can’t see all I’d like to from the POV shot, but it looks like you’re restricting yourself to one motion. The wrist is deviating (the wave-hello motion), but it kind of looks like your forearm is static, as if locked in place.

It seems to me that most fluid, natural motions for tremolo you see on CTC are what Troy calls blended - i.e. a combination of two or more motions. I’m not talking about USX or DSX; that’s what the pick’s doing. I’m talking about your muscles.

Not telling you to do this exactly, as you might vary it depending on your intended pick path, but the following helped me… I first forced a deviation-only motion, like yours. Then I forced a forearm rotation-only motion (turn-the-key motion - but with no wrist. Lock that wrist!). Tougher to do, but I figured out how. I’d do each of these for a minute or so.

Then I’d combine the two - and it pretty much happened on the spot, without having to be too deliberate about it. If you work through all that, you may end up with a more mechanically efficient, blended motion that you can do faster and with greater consistency.

#15

I really think you need to spend a while (not 10 minutes) trying every combination of motion and escape and pick grip until you find something that doesn’t bounce and has a linear path.

It doesn’t have to sound good and it may not be the escape motion you prefer, but I think this is the starting point to move forward. Try to be an “experimenting kid” for a while, make some awful sounds on your guitar and try to find a motion that is smooth.

My USX is bouncy as all heck. Looks like yours. I tried for months to get it to be a smooth linear motion, no go even though I was putting in hours and hours each day. I had to experiment for a few more months to find a smooth DSX. Now I sound awful, can’t play my old licks, etc. but I’m not stringhopping anymore at least and I can see how things will improve a lot once I synchronize eventually.

#16

Hi @lime!

I’ll toss in my two cents regarding this topic. I’ll quote parts of your posts where I think some clarification is needed. Hopefully I don’t come off too blunt! :slightly_smiling_face: I read through this topic as thoroughly as I could; forgive me if I missed something! :wink:

Personally I think you’re putting a bit too much focus on the past and years spent playing. I know 7 years might feel like a long time and it’s frustrating not having made the progress that one would have wanted in that timespan. However, it’s going to hinder you more than help you in your development if you constantly have it in your back of your mind. No one’s gonna judge for your time-progress ratio and I think it would be best to try and drop that thought if possible. Troy himself said in some of the Talking the Code broadcast that he has spent around 20 years on ineffective picking techniques, so you’re not alone in that part!

I understand you want to learn to tremolo picking, but doing it extensively could be less beneficial for your guitar playing on a whole. When the element of fun is missing or something lacks the spark of joy your enthusiasm eventually drops and you start doing and enjoying it less, which could lead to you quitting that activity completely. I think learning a new song or doing something on the guitar that you think you’re currently good at could help with your enjoyment of guitar playing and overall self-esteem and confidence.

I think there’s a big difference in forcing yourself to practice and doing it spontaneously or because you want to. Following a practice schedule helps some to structure their practice sessions and get more out of their available time, but I think you should never feel forced to do it in that case either. Try maybe to mix up your practice schedule or how long or how often you practice if you feel you’re currently forcing your sessions.

A couple of questions:

  • Are you exaggerating the vibration issue in the second video or is that the amount that occurs when you’re playing?
  • Is the source of the vibration the whole arm or just the hand?
  • Does the vibration happen separately in both hands or is one hand vibrating as an effect of the other one?

I think posting a clip where we can see both of your arms and the whole guitar when you’re playing could partly help deduce your problem.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Do you mean that strings with more resistance amplifies the vibration issue? I don’t quite follow.

Reading this, I would spontaneously guess they’re different things since you said you don’t get anxious while playing in your bedroom. Maybe there could be some tension in your playing that produces the same kind of outcome? I don’t have the symptoms you mentioned, but maybe someone else on this forum could help you more with this and share their insights.

Good mindset! :+1:I think experimenting with something more than just pure wrist deviation could be beneficial!

I understand you want to keep this thread focused on your USX picking motion, but I think posting a video or your DSX technique could help here! Do your hands, one or both of them, do the same vibration you described earlier when doing your DSX picking motion? What exactly do you mean with the last section on “absorbing the pushback”? I think it’s the same thing I asked for clarification earlier, but I’ll just repeat myself here.

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#17

As others also have already mentioned on this thread, If you want to learn a picking motion I think experimenting with different mechanics and other factors relative to picking is the fastest way forward. Try all the variations and picking details in the Pickslanting Primer and incorporate them when troubleshooting your technique. When refining a picking motion, sometimes the smaller things – like edge picking angle or supporting fingers – can have quite a huge impact!

With that said, I can give some hinters on my USX wrist deviation technique that looks similar to yours and a compound movement with the forearm (similar to Troy’s) that I also have started using. I tried to replicate the angle you used in your video to the best of my ability, but I didn’t quite manage to get the exact same perspective! Rotating the guitar around at times also made it a bit harder to play! :upside_down_face:

Wrist deviation:

Comparing this to your technique, I would say that my arm is a bit less supinated. As a result, my pickslant is a bit more shallow and my escape angle smaller. Personally I can’t do pure wrist deviation with a more supinated arm position. I would also say that my wrist is more deviated to the Ulnar side as a whole than yours.

I also feel that I need to keep my supporting fingers tucked and with the pinky touching the guitar; if I spread them all out or lift them all off the guitar I feel that my hand wants to go to a DSX position. I can’t tell from your video how tight you hold the pick, but my grip is quite loose and relaxed. I can definitely feel some pick flop if I actively think about it when playing. I usually don’t use that much edge picking with this technique.

Forearm Rotation + Wrist Deviation

Here I use a compound movement of the forearm rotating and the wrist deviating, similar to what Troy often uses. Comparing it with the first motion, you can see that my arm is more supinated and my wrist a bit more Radially deviated. My pickslanting and escape angle are consequently also a bit more distinct.

I keep all of my supporting fingers extended. For some reason, I can’t do this kind of picking technique tucking the fingers, so it’s a bit reversed from the first case. It feels that I need a bit more edge picking here, but I can still feel the pick flopping around a little.

Switching between them starting with rotation + deviation:

Both of these picking motions feel comfortable and relaxed to me and I could do them for an extended period of time. Most of the above-mentioned aspects are personal preference, but some might make the USX picking motion easier to grasp.

I think both of these motions look quite similar to yours, so maybe give them a shot! Hopefully, you’ll find something of value picking wise. :slightly_smiling_face:

#18

Thanks for all the responses, guys! I don’t have time to respond to everything, but I’ll try to cover some of the main topics and questions.

Multiple people have suggested that I should spend time experimenting. I want to be clear that I’ve spent a lot of time doing this in the past without much success. Of course I’m not unwilling to try it again, but I know that it will take me significantly longer than most people for experimentation to lead anywhere.

Hey @AndreasNasman, I’ll try to answer a bunch of your questions.

I think there’s a big difference in forcing yourself to practice and doing it spontaneously or because you want to.

To be honest, force might be too harsh of a word. Most days I was genuinely quite motivated, and even went far beyond the 30 minute mark because I wanted to. Not all days were that smooth, but most were.

Are you exaggerating the vibration issue in the second video or is that the amount that occurs when you’re playing?

Genuinely no. I tried to keep my hand in place as best I could while recording that. This clip was also the first take.

Is the source of the vibration the whole arm or just the hand?

Well, I think it’s just unintentional extension/flexion in the wrist, but my forearm moves as a result of that motion too. Like when my hand goes down, my arm goes up and vice versa. Something about primitive lever mechanics probably explains that… That’s why I think vibration is the best term for it.

Does the vibration happen separately in both hands or is one hand vibrating as an effect of the other one?

No it’s totally independent.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Do you mean that strings with more resistance amplifies the vibration issue? I don’t quite follow.

When your pick pushes through the string, the string pushes back due to basic Newtonian physics. In the extreme case where your hand is 100% relaxed like the hand is dead, your hand would be pushed away from the guitar. Most people are able to fight this pushback with a tiny amount of tension or a tiny amount of flexion, even if you can’t feel it, but a small amount of downward force is definitely required to keep the picking motion linear.

In my case, this pushback seems to act like a catalyst to set off the bouncing motion early. But I’m less confident about this detail.

I understand you want to keep this thread focused on your USX picking motion, but I think posting a video or your DSX technique could help here!

Since everyone is asking, I’ll try to include a recording of this. Might take some time…

Do your hands, one or both of them, do the same vibration you described earlier when doing your DSX picking motion?

Yes, but you probably won’t be able to see it. I push my thumb into the lower register strings to dampen the vibration to the point where it actually looks quite flat when everything goes right. It doesn’t feel flat though. And sometimes my hand jumps a little bit too much to where the dampening isn’t sufficient.

#19

Fyi this second video here where it’s faster doesn’t look like deviation, it looks like Di Meola / Andy Wood style “2 o’clock” wrist motion, which from this arm position creates DSX. Like this:

I could be wrong, it could be the camera angle. But that’s what it looks like. And it looks good too, worth working on.

#20

Hey! Sorry you’re having all this trouble. There’s some very good advice here. @gotmixes in particular is right on target:

A couple people have suggested better video of the vibration thing when it happens, filmed from the two perspectives we normally use (audience and strings). Here are some tips for doing that:

How are you getting the closeup shot, do you have a Magnet? If so that’s fine, you can continue to use that. If you have a tripod, pulling back a little farther in both strings and audience will include more forearm / arm and that can be helpful to see more of what’s going on.

More generally, the vibration thing looks pretty fast. It also looks like wrist/flexion extension, which can certainly work as a picking motion. The table tap test is also flexion-extension. If you take a metronome and tap eighth notes (i.e. two taps per click) on a table with your wrist, what’s the max tempo where you can tap two bars, is it over 200?

#21

I was going for an EJ type of USX wrist motion, but It could be that I slipped into Andy’s style of DSX picking motion between the takes as I often play like that too. From the camera angle, it is indeed a bit hard to tell though; I can’t say for sure myself looking back at the video!

#22

Sorry for the delay everyone! I was busy earlier this week and then ran into a headache trying to edit the videos so I just put everything into one video.

This video is a demonstration of my DSX technique that everyone has requested. I have front angle and side angle shots of tremolo playing at 180bpm, and also a shot of me playing a pentatonic run to show you how I use this technique for more musical stuff. It’s a two note per string run, and it’s probably not pure DSX at some parts because I think I use a tiny bit of rotation to escape on the upstroke. I played it 3 different ways which are all equally comfortable to me.

Timeline:
0:00 - Front angle at full speed (180bpm 16ths)
0:05 - Front angle at half speed
0:16 - Side angle at full speed (180bpm 16ths)
0:21 - Side angle at half speed
0:30 - 2 note per string Pentatonic run using economy picking
0:38 - 2 note per string Pentatonic run using alternate picking starting on downstroke
0:46 - 2 note per string Pentatonic run using alternate picking starting on upstroke

The slow stuff is comfortable, but the two tremolo picking recordings are not smooth and not effortless to me at all. My hand is still bouncing erratically, I’m just suppressing it by digging my thumb into the lower register strings.

#23

More generally, the vibration thing looks pretty fast. It also looks like wrist/flexion extension, which can certainly work as a picking motion.

From testing just now, I can vibrate my arm up and down around 250bpm in eighth note taps.

While that sounds super useful and cool, I’ve never found a way to exploit this motion on guitar, it just hinders me. Also, while my flexion/extension is indeed fast, that speed does not translate to other motions at all. That’s partly why I find the table-top tapping test a very weird test, because it only tests one of your motions. I think swishing your hand back and forth on a table might be a better test for determining wrist deviation speed. I’m not really able to do that motion without dragging my arm along with it though.

#24

In your case, the table tap test is way to see if the uncontrolled nature of what’s happening in your guitar playing is also happening in other activities. When you do the table tap test, do you experience uncontrolled tremor as in your picking video, or does it look like controlled tapping, just very fast? Some video of this would be instructive.

For a pure wrist approach, you need a three-finger / middle finger grip to use FE motion. That’s how EVH does it. With a more typical index finger grip, this motion that I do is mostly flexion-extension:

More generallly, we’re still waiting on better video from you. If you think there are potentially physiological underpinnings to this, like a kind of tremor, I would also suggest potentially getting looked at by a doctor, either neuro or ortho or something. If there’s a legitimate issue, let’s find out instead of beating your head against a wall.

#25

I’d say it looks controlled if I’m trying to use that motion in isolation. And it doesn’t happen in other activities since I can’t think of any other activities where I’d need to deviate my wrist quickly.

Nonetheless, I’m not super interested in trying to use the EVH method since I’m currently searching for a method that is compatible with palm muting. I have experimented with his technique in the past though.

More generallly, we’re still waiting on better video from you

I actually posted a video directly above my last reply. Sorry about the confusion, I guess I could’ve just replied to you in the same post!

If you think there are potentially physiological underpinnings to this, like a kind of tremor, I would also suggest potentially getting looked at by a doctor

I have looked up tremors, but I doubt it would be that since it’s not persistent. It just happens when I try to move my hand fast because I don’t understand how to do wrist deviation in a natural way. I would never have even discovered it if it weren’t for practicing guitar. I didn’t even realize it was weird until a few years ago; I just thought everyone could vibrate their hand up and down.

#26

Sorry, my bad! I didn’t see that — I only saw what you wrote to me. This new clip looks fine to me. I’m not seeing any of the spasmodic type motion. Were you specifically trying to avoid that?

The motions here are very small, which can sometimes make moving from one string to another at high speed feel like a comparatively larger and more abrupt jump. But if you don’t notice that then I wouldn’t worry about it for now.

Otherwise, if you can do this with no sudden uncontrolled vibration-like freak out, then again this looks pretty good. This makes me think you can probably do plenty of other picking motions as well if you want to, if only for the learning experience.

Re: muting, note that when you use the three-finger / middle-finger grip like EVH does, you need to use a more supinated arm position. This is actually better for muting, not worse, because it allows the pinky side of the hand to stay in more continuous contact with the strings. When you use a maxi-supinated arm position like Steve Morse, the entire right side of Steve’s hand rests on the bridge for muting across all six strings if he wants.

So again, using more supination with a middle- or three-finger grip is worth the experiment if only because you may uncover motions that feel or work better right now. Our instructions for cycling through these different arm positions are all here:

If you don’t have a membership, or can’t swing one currently, we still have the scholarship program so feel free to reach out about that if you like. Up to you.

Also, note that “deviation” isn’t really what players use when they use your arm position and perform a DSX wrist motion. For example this is what Andy Wood’s DSX motion looks like:

This is not deviation, but actually a motion somewhere in between the deviation axis and the flexion-extension axis. In other words, if Andy were to standardize his arm position so that his thumb and pinky were parallel to the floor, his wrist would be moving on a diagonal, up and to the right. This is the same motion Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, and Andy James use. I’m not even really sure there’s anything particularly special about “deviation” as an axis of wrist motion, so much as just a compass point chosen by academics. In many everyday ctivities, these “in between” motions are the ones people use.

#27

So regarding my DSX motion:

The motions here are very small, which can sometimes make moving from one string to another at high speed feel like a comparatively larger and more abrupt jump. But if you don’t notice that then I wouldn’t worry about it for now.

If I try to move my hand any further it starts to drag my forearm along with it, which is why I use small motions. I’m not sure if I can comfortably skip to other strings or not, that’s something that would take some practice as it’s not a motion I’ve learned how to do yet. I’ve mostly just focused on single string stuff for now.

Also, note that “deviation” isn’t really what players use when they use your arm position and perform a DSX wrist motion.

The main difference for me is that I’m digging my thumb into the strings to dampen the vibration, so Andy Wood’s DSX technique wouldn’t work for me, although I wish I could do that. It looks like such a complex hand motion!

Re: muting, note that when you use the three-finger / middle-finger grip like EVH does, you need to use a more supinated arm position. […] When you use a maxi-supinated arm position like Steve Morse […]

I think I misunderstood the EVH motion, as I thought you were referring to his fancy tremolo picking where his hand is in the air. I think you made a video about that motion. Either way, I know what you’re referring to now, and I’ve also spent some time experimenting with more supination, but I don’t find it comfortable at all. For one, my thumb doesn’t bend far enough to even reach the strings if I supinate like Steve Morse does. But even with less supination, it only works for me if my arm approach is very high (like if the guitar is hung low or my shoulder is raised) which personally isn’t comfortable. And even if it were, my vibration motion isn’t exploitable here anyway.

I’ve also experimented with the three finger grip in the past, although I was emulating James Hetfield and not EVH at the time. I don’t mind it, but it doesn’t make much of a difference to me.

This makes me think you can probably do plenty of other picking motions as well if you want to, if only for the learning experience.

That’s good to hear, although it leads to the main question: How?

I kind of regret mentioning my DSX technique, since this entire thread immediately derailed from the first reply, but I’m still hoping I can get feedback on what I can do going forward. I’m really trying to find a USX motion that’s compatible with palm muting. I know it won’t happen instantly (or in 10 minutes of experimentation), so I’m willing to take the slow route, but I’m just not sure which slow route. My DSX technique took me about 2 years of constant practice before I could get past 130bpm, so that gives me a tiny amount of hope that I can do it again with a different technique.

#28

Andy’s motion isn’t any more complex than any other wrist motion. It’s just the wrist moving back and forth. It may even be the same exact motion you’re doing, I can’t really tell from your clips. Pressing the thumb against the strings wouldn’t inhibit your ability to perform his motion. Andy and Al Di Meola both play with their thumbs pressing on the strings at times and their motion doesn’t change, just the arm position from which the motion is being performed.

Even if we suppose you’re not doing Andy’s motion, and really just doing deviation, well, Mike Stern’s USX motion actually is devation. There would be no change necessary to your wrist motion itself, just a very small change in the arm position necessary.

So it’s gotta be either one, you’re either doing Andy’s motion or you’re already doing Mike’s motion.

There’s only so much we can in a forum post, though we try. We have very detailed tutorials in the Primer for doing these motions, and will only be adding more over time. If you want to watch those and try some of these things, like the wrist-forearm stuff you can pick up a copy of the product or reach out about scholarship, which again, can be as substantial as 100% free if you really can’t swing it.

Can’t make you any better offer than that!

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Practice: correcting mechanics vs. plain repetition
#29

@lime
Hi Lime, great topic and post. I can relate in many ways.

I’ve been doing some fast strumming to unlock my wrist and that has helped tremendously. I wasn’t able to strum 16th notes faster than 120bpm for more than a few bars previously. Now I can strum 160bpm.

How fast can you strum?

Can you play Smells Like Teen Spirit with the muted strums correctly at 128bpm? If you can, try and push it to 110% of normal speed and so on. If your wrist can allow consistent strumming 16th notes at 180bpm, it will feel so much easier when you come back to picking. At least it did for me. Let me know how you go.

#30

Are you engaging your thumb muscles to grip the pick?

#31

“This is not deviation, but actually a motion somewhere in between the deviation axis and the flexion-extension axis. In other words, if Andy were to standardize his arm position so that his thumb and pinky were parallel to the floor, his wrist would be moving on a diagonal, up and to the right. This is the same motion Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, and Andy James use. I’m not even really sure there’s anything particularly special about “deviation” as an axis of wrist motion, so much as just a compass point chosen by academics. In many everyday ctivities, these “in between” motions are the ones people use.”

That’s a bingo.

I’m no expert, but i did study evolutionary biology as an undergad with the fantastic Brett Weinstein. We didnt evolve to move along a deviation axis, we evolved to throw and strike in arc. That’s “dart thrower” and “reverse dart thrower”