Man! Lots of great posts here! I was going to say also that I know it’s kind of easy to dismiss, but the “even notes per string” thing is so very powerful and I have made all kinds of strides forward working on 2, 4 and 6 NPS that jive with my setup. I really want to echo that “effortless” and somewhat “quiet” feeling that jacklr mentioned. That really helped me out hahaha I was a tightly wound ball of tension! lol Good luck!
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The difference between your picking six months ago and now is absurd. Great work @Scottulus .
I’m busy for the rest of today and tomorrow, but I’ll chime in for @Jawnka ASAP.
Tom is not only a monster player, but he is absolutely awesome at “seeing” what one has going on and helping with correcting. I can’t recommend him to guitar players enough. Take some lessons with him, he is awesome and you won’t regret it.
This is EXACTLY what I was going through as well. Except that I had been doing it for decades and my technique revolved around endurance training and tension/fatigue management. A lot of work.
Hey Jawnka, how about you post a clip of a lick or a riff that’s giving you some greif?
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Yes. I have become adept at forearm/ elbow , wrist, finger circle etc where I couldn’t do all of these before. I do each to about the same level of proficiency. I just toggle between them experimenting on which suits best whatever I am trying to do. There are pros and cons to each method. I would class myself now as a good (but not amazing) alternate picker. So yep go for it!
In my experience elbow picking gets the highest speeds, but finger circle usually yields higher accuracy. Wrist tends to land somewhere in the middle. 
@Scottulus - really nice pop tarts above! Very clean and sounded great.
Well @Scottulus, right now I don’t have a specific lick in particular that’s giving me trouble because I’ve just wanted to accomplish speed that I don’t have yet. I can’t find a reliable tremolo picking motion at all is my problem.
I tried what BoBBoLove suggested with just moving my hand as fast as possible using wrist motion while it’s just above the strings. No issue at all, I can do that. The moment I add a pick and start touching the strings however, my thumb and index fingers want to come up and pull away from the string.
@Interestedoz Interesting, I think the thing I’m having the most trouble with here is, If a player needs to go fast from the get go in order to achieve speed. They could unknowingly employ any type of motion. So how would one go fast from the start with a good specific motion type? As in, did you yourself just decide well now I’m going to use my wrist, forearm, etc. at 200 bpm 16th notes after never doing it before?
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Good question!
For me, I could “elbow” some pretty fast lines, so really no other motion could come close off the bat, not without being sloppy, and not without practice. So I decided to allow it to be sloppy, and focus on the speed. Slop can be cleaned! hahaha CTC has some solid advice about “starting with speed” and I put it into practice in the following way;
I set the metronome quite high, and then worked my way “down”. Like 180BPM, do steady 16ths on each string until I got done all 6 strings. Took a break, then I dropped the tempo down a metronome mark. rinse/repeat for about 20 minutes. Just kind of muting the open strings with the LH, not getting into a rut of doing 5 million reps of a lick, because that doesn’t help. I think that honestly, the metronome really just acted as a reference and measurement tool - it just sort of provided a pulse for me to align with my existing internal sense of rhythm (If that makes sense?). My “base” tempo for controlled, and even 16ths was, like 120BPM. However, sloppy bursting was easily in the 140 to 180 range, so I just kept at the sloppy, yet effortless feeling motion and it got a lot less sloppy and much faster.
I play drums too, and Tom and I discussed at length a drummer’s approach to speed and meter and it helped a lot to think almost purely percussively for a bit.
I know that somewhere in the primer Troy describes a feeling of the arm being kind of “dead” from the wrist to the shoulder, and getting the wrist to activate separately takes a bit of practice, but once you get it - it’s yours! Maybe just think of the hand doing it’s movement back and forth, and it just “happens” to be holding a pick… happens to hit a string… happens to do it twice… happens to do it consistently etc etc
I hope that helps! Definitely talk to the main guys here, they know their stuff!
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Hi @Jawnka,
I’ve looked over your clips. It would be really helpful to your playing at normal speed and also from a front angle, but I can give you my impressions.
I concur with @Scottulus on several points.
In your first clip, your motion path is almost pure deviation. It leans just a little towards the dart-thrower trajectory, but it’s quite flat.
To produce an almost flat deviation requires that you engage both flexor and extensor carpi ulnaris (FCU and ECU) on downstrokes and both flexor carpi radialis and extensor carpi radialis brevis and longus (FCR and ECRB+ECRL) on upstrokes. You’re trying to coordinate the action of two different antagonist groups (FCU/ECRB+ECRL or dart-thrower group) and (FCR/ECU or reverse dart-thrower group), and most of the force each group is producing goes to cancel what the force other group produces, rather than producing movement.
Your grip is also overly tight. Your deep extrinsic flexors for the fingers and thumb (flexor digitorum profundus and flexor pollicis longus, respectively) are strongly activated. These muscles are in the forearm and their tendons cross the wrist, so by activating them strongly you are constraining the movement of your wrist. Your knuckles also appear to be going white to me. The nail bed under your thumb is even more noticeable to me.
The second clip appears to be string hopping with finger/thumb movement to facilitate greater range of motion. Certain finger/thumb movents can be effective, but you aren’t really using a consistent repeating mechanic, and it seems to be lacking in power.
The thrid clip is mostly elbow. It’s faster, but you’re also more tense. Your form also drifts over time, you move more toward the “hockey stick” position (radial extension) as you continue. I don’t hear a consistent rhythmic accent. I would wonder about how long you can continue this form for without fatigue or rhythmic drift.
I tell my students to work on this stuff for five minutes, three times a day.
To give a sense of the time frames (not to advertise), most of my students have discovered an efficient picking mechanic within two weeks, and all of them found an efficient mechanic within a month. If you create the right conditions, you can learn a new movement very quickly.
It’s never too late to learn. Case in point:
@Scottulus has completely re-defined his picking technique and his approach to technique generally in the last six months. Six months, after having spent decades habituating excessive tension. I hope he won’t mind me saying this, but of all the students I’ve taught, his habitual tension in his picking hand (and arm, shoulder and neck) was the most extreme I’ve seen.
I think you can train any movement you want. I had never used a dart-thrower motion to play guitar before the pandemic, but I was able to specifically train the Shawn Lane style dart-thrower USX form.
However, I think this is usually the wrong approach for beginners. You can’t do what feels “right” until you know what “right” feels like. In lessons, my job is to help students to find that feeling, and I usually recommend that they focus on the first efficient movement they discover for at least a few months. The more familiar they become with that feeling, the more intuition they’ll have for learning other movements in future.
I totally understand that some students want to learn a particular form first. However, students will often ignore other forms that may be more easily achievable while they try to pursue the form their mind is set on. In the longer term you can learn whatever form you want, and students are often satisfied with the first form they develop, even if it’s not the one they thought they wanted.
I agree completely.
I have five criteria for picking technique that I insist on with my students, and I’ve been told that even just reflecting on the list has given some students a clearer picture of what they should be aiming for.
Here’s my checklist:
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Efficient muscular activation against low background tension.
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Strong connection to internal clock.
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High dynamic range.
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The facility to escape consistently in at least one direction.
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Tracking capability across all strings.
Any picking technique which meets those criteria is acceptable to me. There are other considerations that I personally value, but they aren’t necessary (daming facility, facility to incorporate hybrid picking, etc). If your picking technique meets those five criteria and it synergises with your lines, people will think you’re world class (because you will be).
If you’re not a Masters In Mechanics subscriber already, I’d definitely recommend signing up and working through the new content. It’s very approachable and understandable.
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I just started experimenting with all of the approaches a while ago. I was originally most adept at elbow - from memory. I have really been on a journey to improve my accuracy. So I started experimenting with all kinds of mechanics. After a while you can just do them. And weirdly, it seems if I correct an error with accuracy with one technique, it seems to be corrected for all! E.g. I notice I am slightly inaccurate on an upstroke - once I start working on that, it corrects on wrist and forearm.
But as I mentioned above, there are still very slight pros and cons with each approach. For accuracy (for me) finger circle style seems to win. But for sheer speed - elbow. This has held true for me for some time.
So (at the suggestion of a poster here) I have been trying to learn the Jet to Jet solo and not only play it - but make it sound like Yngwie! To achieve this, I am currently using a range of techniques in the one solo:
opening 6’s - elbow
first solo section - finger circle
Uli Jon Roth lick section - a rotation of the pick to be almost flat - usx I think?
next section - finger circle
Final run: elbow
I could not play all of these out of the gate - took a lot of practice.
But if you are stuck, I am not sure a change in mechanic will yield a sudden improvement - the differences for me are very nuanced. So I would focus on choosing one mechanic (e.g. elbow) and see if you can get things going with that first. I’m sorry I can’t get the videos above to work so I am unable to see your examples. But I think single string licks are the best place to start. I would have saved time I think by starting with those - e.g. Yngwie 6’s or first section of pop tarts.
You can do it!
Thank you guys all so much for the advice and tips, I’m going to keep at it in trying to find a working motion. I think I’ve built a bad habit over my years of playing with using my thumb as Tom pointed out from my second clip.
I’m going to try what you all suggested and use 5 minutes 3 times a day to try and find an effective motion with Toms 5 tips in mind. I’ll keep everyone updated if I find something, thanks again!
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@Tom_Gilroy Is it possible to get some lessons? I’ve done a lot of what Scottulus has and completely relearned technique over the past 2.5 years after playing for 35 years with too much tension. Thanks to this forum and Troy’s work I’ve come a long way since I first joined and I can do things now I had given up on being able to do. Have you taught people with ADHD and/or Discalculia before? My main stumbling blocks at this time are being able to play lines that are longer than 4 or 5 bars, and high speed picking I’ve not found a motion that works for me when staying on a single string, I can pick much faster if I move around without tension and I’m not sure what I am doing wrong and need some direction. I’ve learned USX, DSX and I can swap between them, and I can also do the Andy Wood pendulum type of thing which I find most comfortable at this time.
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