Notes Per Second Chart

Teacher's Lounge
#21

180 16ths and 120 sextuplets I think is a good starting point for shred for two reasons:

  1. I think if you hear performances isolated with nothing giving the tempo, like the click track or drums are muted, I think it would still sound plenty “shreddy.”

  2. Technique wise, 180 16th notes, as an educator, is my personal benchmark for if I have a student that can hit 180 with a tremolo and it feels easy, that means they probably have an efficient picking motion.

I’d also throw out there, similar to @tommo 's point, theres plenty of playing below these speeds that, depending on context, still sound “fast” to most listeners, especially if they’re not guitar nerds. A lead like the Sails of Charon solo kinda falls into this category for me. Its only sextuplets at 110, but that first run definitely “hits” like a shred lick over that groove.

I do tend to have a distinction between “advanced metal lead” and “shredders.” I don’t know if that makes sense, but a good example would be like, Randy Rhoads was a very skilled metal lead guitarist, but Yngwie is a shredder. Btw, I love Randy’s playing, so thats no slight at all, I’m just referencing speed and the lines that are being played.

#22

One alternative is to only change the name of the rightmost column from Skill Level to Shred Skill Level, and then it’s all good!

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#23

Yeah, what’s fast for a non guitar player? I know my ear has changed a LOT over the years.

I can’t remember who it was, some fusion guy, and apparently when I was just starting out with guitar my dad would play listen to him a lot. I asked my dad why this guy has to play fast all the time.

A while after that my dad had him on again, and he told me I thought this guy was really fast. I was surprised, because I thought it was more medium paced at that point.

Getting this chart put together was inspired due to me facing and finding some of my own short-comings. I started wondering what people actually consider fast, like the average listener.

The 180 and 120 you mentioned makes sense. I started using those speeds for students too, the ones who wanted to hit shred level speeds. If Troy hadn’t shared that those speeds are basically your average shred guitarist speeds, I don’t know what speeds I would have used. My sense of speed is a bit weird I think.

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#24

Thanks John. Saved and staring at it

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#25

Awesome! Hope it brings some good inspiration :slight_smile:

#26

Thanks John… you rule.

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#27

A friend of mine and I discussed one time how when classical composers put tempo designations it was before metronome markings were invented. So on a piece we normally think of as very fast, like the 3rd movement of Vivaldi’s summer, it’s pretty common to hear conductors take that around 160 bpm + but who knows if in the actual Baroque era it was that fast. Maybe Vivaldi thought 140 was fast and it was actually intended to be played at that tempo.

Just like in sports, new benchmarks get set and our perception of what “fast” is changes with those benchmarks.

Interesting thing about the 180 mark that I forgot to bring up before. In a lesson with @Tom_Gilroy , he told me to stop thinking about what is “fast” for a guitarist and start thinking what is “fast” for a drummer, because no drummer is gonna break a sweat doing a single stroke roll at 150 bpm. The idea is that drummers are making very similar joint motions to a guitarists picking hand. They get one hit per each “down up” but they use two hands. So essentially, if it’s “normal” for drummers to hit 180+ as a decent “fast” benchmark, there’s no reason why we can’t use this as guitarists as well.

Try doing a single stroke roll on your knees right now. I bet even for someone untrained in drumming will start feeling “fast” at approximately that 180 mark.

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#28

Woo…I guess I’m advanced. That’s nice to know. Still trying to really get into that shredder territory. I can easily hit pretty high speeds with a DPX but but UPX always seems stuck around 170/180.

#29

Slightly unrelated but @milehighshred when you pick 16th notes in that 120-150bpm range what happens to your Dart Thrower technique? Does it become DBX? Or do you use another form completely? :slight_smile:

#30

I’m not really sure. I don’t pay attention to that stuff a ton, but I do know about when the elbow really kicks in. @Troy probably knows better than me!

That being said, this video link is time stamped to where I demonstrate two-way slanting at different speeds. Seeing this will probably give a better answer than I could type out: https://youtu.be/ugUIcqBksQo?si=D9Pc9rXI6wn9seRN&t=231

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#31

@milehighshred walks through his different mechanics in this Obsidian chapter!

The slower speeds are fingers, the faster ones are wrist or wrist-elbow.

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#32

Comfortably advanced, uncomfortably a shredder. Where I’ve always wanted to be lol

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#33

After taking in feedback, here’s an update to the chart:

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#34

I appreciate that this version isn’t using the word “virtuoso” any more because that’s a word with a lot of different meanings and connotations and while guitar speed is part of that, I can definitely think of virtuoso players who would still be in the 10 note per second area.

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#35

Of course! I can’t imagine Frank Gambale doing a super fast tremolo in his solos, and I wish you good luck trying to play that way, Ha. But obviously @milehighshred just referring to the speed of a straight tremolo. That doesn’t really make you an Alien on the guitar, much less a “virtuoso”, but still, mastering a technique that fast, even on a single note, is impressive.

Shawn Lane had an excess of speed and not everything was synchronized, but even so it’s extremely difficult to achieve the same result. On the other hand, I’m sure Shawn would have serious problems trying to play Tumeni Notes or anything by Molly Tuttle. Same thing for Rusty, Roy Marchbank, etc… So the reverse is also true!

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#36

Well, straight tremolo was certainly part of it. It’s more of how many NPS produce a “wow” factor. What grabs the ear? What do people think SOUNDS impressive whether they play or not.

Getting feedback also helps me in something I’m currently developing. I want to be sure I present something that certainly has that “wow” factor, without pushing my limits to something that’s not achievable.

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#37

Believe me, you already cause that “wow” reaction in EVERY guitarist who sees you play! Your Obsidian seminar is proof of that and it’s simply terrifying!
So whatever you’re preparing, you’re going to cause it! :slightly_smiling_face:

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#38

Thank you! I appreciate that :slight_smile:

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#39

I know the chart deals specifically with picking, but I’ve always felt that if you’re talking “impressive” sounding the threshold is higher for legato techniques (including tapping). Like a legato lick at 120 sextuplets doesn’t sound as ferocious as picking at that speed, to my ears.

Similarly, wider interval licks start sounding more impressive at slower speeds to me than patterns that are moving stepwise.

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