One-page explainer on playing scales with alternate picking — overview of what we know!

Playing Technique
#21

Wait, isn’t Andy Wood’s natural position pronated? I mean, based on the videos in that link you posted it looks slightly pronated, although pretty close to neutral, but maybe my sense of “neutral” is off. If that’s not pronated, then what is? If he pronated his wrist much further, the lower strings would get in the way of his thumb, particular if he’s playing on the B or high e strings. Are you only able to pronate when playing the lower strings ala Brendon Small’s elbow technique?

Also, wouldn’t a supinated position be more ideal for upstroke escape?

Anyway, it of course makes sense that using a shallower pickslant alleviates this problem, I was just hoping there was something I had missed.

Unfortunately, I’m not sure a helper motion is even compatible with my technique since I use wrist flexion on the downstroke and wrist extension on the upstroke to get the upstroke escape happening. I can’t even turn it off now, which kind of sucks since I can’t do DSX at all anymore, even though it was my main technique for years.

#22

I think the textbook wrist-based pronated DSX is Molly Tuttle’s pronated form, leaning the thumb side of the heel of the hand against the bridge.

#23

Andy makes the 2:00 wrist motion as his default. This wrist motion will escape from any arm position except the most supinated ones. Both he and Al switch between having both palm heels anchored, to having only the pinky heel anchored. The 2:00 wrist motion will escape from either of those positions.

Andy is never really pronated, where the pinky heel is lifted off the strings with an air gap beneath it like Molly Tuttle. But again, it doesn’t really matter what the arm position is. If you’re making a 2:00 wrist motion it will escape with any of these arm positions, except a Van Halen style arm position.

If you want to get both escapes from the same arm position, with minimal forearm wiggle, you need at least some supination of the arm relative to the strings so that the upstroke will escape (3:00 motion) and the downstroke will escape (2:00 motion). So you can’t use a Molly style arm position for that if these are your wrist motions. You would need to use Molly’s wrist motions which are 3:00 and 4:00.

#24

Let me add also that this type of super-technical description that I’m giving you here is useful for us to know how things work, and it helps us come up with simple and more practical ways to teach these techniques. But nobody, myself included, is sitting around going really slowly and thinking “ok, now 2:00 motion! and now, transition to 3:00!” I can’t even feel these things when playing. I’m just trying to play smoothly and somewhat speedily to avoid stringhopping at first, and then working from there. The whole process we outlined in the other thread.

#25

Ok yeah I just looked up footage of her playing and it’s definitely pronated more than I expected. The way she collapses her thumb into her palm is so alien to me, but I have weirdly pointy thumb joints so I guess that’s why I didn’t think it was possible.

#26

And she is an extreme example. I’m not sure where anatomists or CTC would draw the line between “neutral” and “pronated”, but I’m sure it’s not as extreme as Tuttle’s setup. @Troy probably describes these things in CTC terms in the Primer, but I’m not caught up.

#27

I just describe pronated as any situation where the bones are tilted compared to the plane of the strings. In practical terms this just means there has to be an air gap under the pinky heel. I don’t know if Molly is an extreme example of that, or if most people are just used to looking at players who are not actually pronated, like Al Di Meola, and thinking they are. So Molly maybe looks extreme compared to that.

Either way I think we may have confused people about the arm thing. It doesn’t control the wrist motion being made. The Wood / Di Meola “2:00” wrist motion can be made at any arm position. We’ve seen examples here on the forum of players doing that with a pronated arm, which is common on the low strings when players anchor on the body temporarily. But they don’t necessarily change the picking motion when they do that, which is why the escape appears even more vertical in that position. i.e. It’s the same motion, just with the arm turned.

The further along we get, the less we rely on technical descriptions as we figure out more practical tricks for teaching, like table tests. I’m not sure anyone should really be fussing with their arm position beyond learning a few simple anchor points and then just trying to play smoothly.

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#28

I am filled with adrenaline reading this.
As a chronic stringhopper for thirteen years, the ‘just do what comes naturally’ advice was utterly infuriating. It led me to believe that there was some sort of fundamental, physiological problem with my picking hand.

The most common refrain in alternate picking ‘lessons’ was always:

‘When you think about it, it’s actually easy to alternate pick on a single string. The problem is SWITCHING STRINGS. Here are some exercises. Start with the metronome at 70bpm. In six months you’ll be shredding.’

Even prestigious publications like Guitar Techniques from the UK would sagely prescribe this path.

#29

Hey @Troy, I’m curious about this, my understanding was that at this point in time we may not have any record /proof of anybody using pure-double escape for all strokes at faster than ‘medium fast speeds’ (relative to your distinction, I get the general tempos you’re probably referring to) BUT we also don’t have any reason to think it couldn’t work.

I know it’s a bit moot as for 3NPS scales it’s also not necessary, but is this a “it will most likely not work” kind of thing, or a "we haven’t seen it work yet so it’s more sensible to exclude it as a good strategy for ‘faster than medium fast’ " kind of thing, or something else?

#30

Sorry bad choice of words. “Double escape” isn’t a technique just a way of describing what a motion looks like. Any curved motion could be “double escape” if oriented properly to the strings, and as we know EVH style forearm technique creates a curved pickstroke well beyond 200bpm.

I just meant, as you point out, that it’s a moot point for scale playing because it’s not necessary to use only that type of motion all the time so nobody does it as the only motion. However yes if you film fast scale playing amd scale patterns in the 200bpm range you will see double escape pickstrokes in there. On patterns like fours there have to be transitions between escapes somehow and when this happens you will very often see a double escape pickstroke.

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#31

This is really great - but for me I found there were additional factors: string gauge and pick were a large factor on speed and accuracy.

#32

I’ve been fighting this battle for decades. I came to guitar from piano and assumed I should know all the scales, arpeggios, modes, chord extensions, etc, that I know on keyboards. Drilled myself like crazy on the same. Maxed out around 4 notes per beat @ 100. Then I came to Cracking the Code, and eventually stumbled onto this thread.

Now, here’s what I did after reading the original post, and … don’t do what I did.

I went for a pure DPS motion, and skipping the string strike every 6 notes - just doing a hammer on.

I think this messed up my form worse than it was when I was violently doing string hopping constantly. I’ve been doing this for maybe 6 months now but … as I picked up tempo it’s felt very lopsided, like a man with one peg-leg trying to sprint. I’m topping out around 4 notes per beat @ 92.

So now I’m going to go back to pure alternating, and option #6 in the OP, with the hope that sufficient time in practice will eventually lead to me picking up one of the other options unconsciously.

Looking forward to any feedback.

#33

My best advice is not to fish around on the forum or experiment through total trial and error. I’d really stick with the Primer sequence. It’s included in your membership and it’s the best advice we have!

On that note, I’m not seeing a user account with your username ‘don1’. Are you able to access the site? If not, definitely send us a note in support and we’ll look into it asap.

Otherwise, the first steps of Primer sequence are roughly this:

  1. Test your joint motions and record the numerical values

  2. Take the best performing motion and follow the tutorials for it in the Primer to play a single note on a single string, i.e. tremolo

  3. If the tremolo is much slower than the results on your motion test, this indicates an issue with the technique. This can’t usually be solved with “exercises”, you have to fix the technique itself until the speeds are closer

  4. Once 3 is sorted, establish hand sync on repeating single-string patterns until you can play them fast with one pickstroke per note and solid time

  5. Once 4 is sorted, learn which escape your joint motion has and try some string-switching phrases that match this escape.

etc.

If you run into trouble with any of these steps, make a TC on the platform with some clips of what is happening and we will look at it right away!

#34

I’m Donald Siler on the site, went through all the videos. My tremolo is much lower than my joint motions - so you just gave me the clear call to action.

When I was in music school I did 4 notes per beat at 176 on piano in my regular technique practice - so it feels like my speed on guitar ought to be much higher (even if the mechanics are wildly different). I mention because I understand you’re a pianist as well.

#35

@Troy is the top post here still your current thinking? If not, what would you update?

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#36

Ok, I went back to strict alternate picking and am revisiting the videos again (it’s a ton of videos).

My natural motion is DWPS.

In trying to adopt what I learned on CTC, I tried (and am now trying again) …

  • Using a downstroke when moving to a new string
  • Using a sweep when moving from one string to the next, if I’m angled in the “right” direction
  • Using legato for a “helper” motion, if I’m moving the “wrong” direction (garage spikes)

Before I started Cracking the Code, I think I may have intuitively been using a swiping motion to get over the garage spikes, but I can’t seem to do it consciously. So I’d been focusing on using legato instead, for my helper motion.

My sense is that I need to clean up my sweeping motion - it still feels like two strokes rather than a sweep - to rid of the string hopping.

But changing up my picking motions, from Alternate to DWPS, back to Alternate, and now back to DWPS … is killing me. I’ve gotten sloppier and having to go back to half-speed to clean it up.

Troy wrote:

My best advice is not to fish around on the forum
or experiment through total trial and error.

What have I written that prompted that guidance (which I thought I had been following), other than that I’m continuing to have difficulty getting rid of the string hopping?

#37

I could write a near dissertation on this and how much it bogs people down on learning instruments.

There is a reason what has become idiomatic to certain instruments becomes idiomatic and a lot has to do with what ergonomically works…

Pedal steel is my other love and Paul Franklin (possibly the most recorded steel guitarist ever, if you’ve heard 90s country you’ve heard him play) doesn’t teach via scales either in his courses as music is rarely if at all up and down scalar runs.

#38

Is the problem the scale, or the fact that some scales have 3nps?

Indeed, isn’t the most important thing to communicate the following:

  • 1nps can be extremely problematic (and this is an encyclopedia)
  • 3nps can also be problematic, but there are some great workarounds

So the scale, then, is merely a tiny piece with a handful notes in it… the problem, I suspect, isn’t the scale itself, but that it might happen to have 3nps (depending on how it is fingered). What do you think? :thinking:

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#39

@kgk wrote:

So the scale, then, is merely a tiny piece with a handful notes in it… the problem,
I suspect, isn’t the scale itself, but that it might happen to have 3nps (depending
on how it is fingered). What do you think?

I agree, FWIW. And (referring to the previous poster) I’ve been playing for 60 years and have a degree from North Texas, so I don’t much take kindly to being “schooled” about the value of knowing my instrument. Scales, arpeggios, and modes, cadences … they are tools from which we create music. Sure, many great musicians create great music without having explicitly studied these tools, but if you came up through music school like I did, you cannot help but have an appreciation for understanding the tools in your tool chest.

I’m starting to feel more than a little disillusioned with CTC, though.

#40

Hi Don. You mentioned above that your joint motion tests outpace your tremolo significantly, so this is the first thing that needs to be addressed - something can be changed with the picking motion itself to smooth it out and close that gap in speed. Without video, no one can say what that is. Once single string ability is sorted, you can look at different options for tackling scale playing, as your tremolo motion will mostly dictate which path to take.